Starting Hand Question From SSH

[banditdad]

I've been using the starting hands in Internet Texas Holdem as a guideline. Now I pick up SSH and see that the playable starting hands seem to be somewhat looser than SSH suggests. Is this because SSH is geared more for low limit and ITH is geared for all limits? I'm somewhat confused as to who is offering the better advice for my current play at 1/2 & 2/4 limits.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I notice that there has been a lot of praise recently on these forums for Hilger's book. Here's an excerpt from my review (where I rated the book a 7).

Some of his starting hand advice is also questionable, particularly if there has already been a raise. While the author recognizes that you need to tighten up quite a bit if there is a raise, he still has you routinely calling with ace-queen offsuit which is clearly a mistake against players requiring good hands to make it two bets. And from the big blind he writes: “Other hands to consider calling against a lone early or middle position raiser include: TT, 99, and two suited T and above, AQ, AJ, AT, Axs, KQ, K9s, QJ, and QT.” When I’m in this spot, most of these hands will quickly hit the muck.

Much of the material in Hilger's book either comes from some of our books or Middle Limit Hold 'em by Ciaffone and Brier with virtually no credit given. In this case, starting hand advice was essentially copied from Ciaffone and Brier, and in my opinion they got it too loose. Thus the differences between Hilger's book and SSH.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ChristinaB]

Is Mason openning a big can of worms here?

I also see a lot of respect for ITH in this forum, and I know Ed Miller has provided links here to his posts on the ITH forum.

Has the idea that much of the content of ITH being lifted from other sources including 2+2 and Ciaffone/Brier been discussed much before?

What is the real story on the book?

[BugsBunny]

"How did you come up with the starting hand charts" on the ITH forum

[ QUOTE ]
Writing the starting hand chapters took quite a lot of time and research. I worked very hard at organizing the material and working on the charts so that they could be easy to understand, but at the same time comprehensive.

With that said, I generated the Starting Hand requirements primarily through three different means:
1/ PokerStat - I played over 60,000 hands at Paradise and PokerStat allowed me to effectively evaluate the expectation of every starting hand I played. I was also able to filter the results by including how many players had called. Of course, I was also able to look at results by position.
2/ Pokerroom gives you access to their starting hand database of over 60 million hands (see Recommended Links). It is important to note that the results shown there are for good and bad players, but very interesting nevertheless.
3/ Experience. Even with 60,000 hands in the PokerStat database, this was not enough to get complete results.

I did not use any computer simulations to derive the starting hands. I believe actual live play gives a better indication than a simulation.

One thing to keep in mind, there are a lot of borderline starting hands which have an expection very close to 0. A lot of this depends a lot on how well you play after the flop. The charts are not designed to be the optimal strategy for an advanced player. They are designed to put beginning to intermediate players in potentially profitable situations. Advanced players can play a few more hands than the Charts show which is discussed in detail in my Advanced Concepts chapter on Starting Hands in the book.

One final point. I have noticed that a lot of beginning players spend a lot of time on starting hand play (myself included when starting out).
"Should I call or raise with AA preflop?"
"Can I play Axs from early position?"
"Can I call with 76s with two callers instead of three."

The fact is, there are a lot of borderline decisions in regards to starting hand play that will not make a significant impact on your overall results. Of course, your first goal in Hold'em is to understand basic starting hand play...the charts do this for you. Once you understand this, you will gain a lot more by focusing on your post-flop play than worrying whether 76s is profitable with two callers or three callers.

There is not a lot to gain by playing a few more hands, but there is a lot to lose for beginning players who don't know how to play these borderline hands. Bottomline when starting out, stick to tight preflop play and focus on your post-flop strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as differences in starting hands go a lot has to do with the type of game. Ed's starting hands are the loosest because his book is talking about loose games, in tight games with tight knowledgable players you have to tighten up significantly - for those types of games use HEPFAP. ITH is sort of an in between situation. When he wrote the book the games weren't as loose as they are now. And even now a lot of the Internet games (depending on level) aren't as loose as those in Ed's book (at least not consistently).

The key is in adapting to the situation and adjusting to it. I'm sure that he got some concepts from other books, at least sub-consciously. Starting hands will be similiar (although not identical) in any valid text. As Ed has said (and as Hilger says in the above quote) the real key is in postflop play. Any reasonable set of starting hands will get you there in the beginning. Eventually it becomes a matter of concepts and you're not using starting hand charts anymore anyways.

With the AQo example that Mason used - I agree that against a player with good rasing standards AQo is a hand that should often be folded. Most players online don't have standards that good, and you're often giving up too much if you fold AQo in that situation all the time (against certain players it's another story, but they're the exception not the rule nowadays). The same could be said of the blind defense hands (although I'll muck a few of those myself I'll also play a lot of them - it's situationally dependent)

ITH is a very good book and belongs in any beginners library. Many of the concepts needed for further play are well explained. If I was to lay out a course of study for a TOTAL beginner it would run something like this:

WLLH (Jones)
play a few hundred hands, start reading ITH (Hilger)
Re-read Hilger as needed while playing a few thousand hands.
Once your comfortable with that get SSH (Miller) and TOP (Sklansky) by this point you should be able to identify situations where SSH is applicable and not get too confused by some of the concepts in there. TOP should also make sense now (it wouldn't have previously). You'll be re-reading TOP for the rest of your poker life.
Continue playing and get a copy of HEPFAP next. You'll need it as you move up the ladder and start playing some tougher games. The ideas and concepts in there combined with the material in all the previous books you've read should make you a pretty damn good poker player even if you never read abother poker book.

With that said there's lots of other books that you can (and should) get to help improve your game.

In conclusion I think ITH is a very good book. I would have rated it an 8 myself. I think it's the best book on the market in its particular category in terms of clearly explaing in plain English some very inportant concepts and setting you on the path to becoming an expert player. It will turn you into a decent winner, although it won't have you crushing the game. It considers things like pot size and number of opponents when evaluating hands.

If some of the starting hands are debatable so be it. With starting hands, as with everything else, in many cases "it depends".

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Much of the material in Hilger's book either comes from some of our books or Middle Limit Hold 'em by Ciaffone and Brier with virtually no credit given.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason:

I fully agree that credit should have been given to 2+2, as Hilger's book is essentially a re-working of research and information your company has been providing the poker community for many years. But at the same time I must acknowledge there was something unique about Hilger's presentation... just like Ed Miller, Hilger is good teacher - nothing more. Often the teacher's presentation of the curriculum makes all the difference... in this case ITH achieves it's goal. And his starting hands chart (although slightly flawed) was the most approachable chart I have found so far in any book. In some ways he bridges the gap between 2+2's Hold'em Poker and SSH - because his starting hands chart takes pot size and position into consideration. Using Hilger's pre-flop rules (which is essentially a re-worked and better presented Skylansky hand grouping chart), mixed with the amazing post flop strategy provided in SSH, I have become a far better player.

I should note that I have read most all recommended books except Ciaffone's work, therefore I am not qualified to fully comment - but I'm sure you get my drift.

In da club [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PS: Although I read the core 2+2 books first, I didn't know about the forums here until I read about them in Internet Texas Hold'em.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Luv2DriveTT:

The Hilger book contains a lot of material that is reworked from other sources. In my opinion, he should have given these sources the credit they deserve.

As for your other comments, in my opinion his book is not as good as you think since a fair amount of his starting advice is too loose.

Best wishes,
Mason

[banditdad]

This is what I don't understand and why I originally posted. I did a comparison of ITH to SSH and Ed's starting hands for tight games seem looser than ITH's, yet you say ITH is too loose. I think as a new player you can understand my confusion.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi banditdad:

Once there is a raise, you must tighten up substantially. Calling in this spot with hands that have the potential to make second best hands can be very expensive. This is where the problem lies.

best wishes,
Mason

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
As for your other comments, in my opinion his book is not as good as you think since a fair amount of his starting advice is too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see and understand your criticism regarding the starting hands Mason, yet at the same time I counter that Hilger was the first (that I have read) to show the correlation not only between both position and pot size preflop. For that achievement alone I must give the book credit where credit is due.

My introductory reading list is now:
1) Almost any basic Hold'em book to get the concepts down, and to avoid looseness during the learning process (Warren, Lee, etc)
2) HEP - Unlearn everything you have read so far, and start to play with intelligence
3) Internet Hold'em - enforce the logic behind your play, and hammer home many of the concepts introduced in HEP
4) HEPAP - The wholly grail
5) SSH - taking a step down, to learn how to adjust the game according to the experience of the competition (my all time favorite - congrats on the most ground shattering book to be released in the past decade on the subject of Hold'em)
6) TOP, Inside the mind, etc... over and over again!

Of course I do not live and breathe gaming publications as you do Mason, but from my limited experience my recomendation is a wise path to travel.

In da club [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Luv2DriveTT:

I would take Warren off your list.

Best wishes,
Mason