Two Plus Two Older Archives - View Single Post - 2, 3 for low

Buzz · #8 11-04-2005, 03:13 PM

Hi Bodie - There’s no sharp distinction between some starting hands I’m calling playable and some hands I’m calling marginal. The same is true for the dividing line between marginal starting hands and trash hands - no sharp distinction. If I redid any of the sims, I’d expect the numbers to turn out a bit differently, possibly shifting a particular hand from one category to another. It’s a matter of arbitrarily drawing the line somewhere.

My thinking is the marginal hands should mainly be played only on the button or small blind in an unraised pot. You hate to limp with one of these from early or middle position and then have the pot raised behind you.

There are two categories of negatives for 23XY hands, each worth either one or two negative points.
• (a) single suited is one negative point, rainbow is two negative points.
• (b) one middle card is one negative point, two middle cards is two negative points.

• Consider all 23XY hands with no negative points playable.
• 23XY hands with one negative point are either playable or marginal.
• Consider all 23XY hands with two negative points marginal.
• 23XY hands with three negative points are either marginal or trash.
• Consider all 23XY hands with four negative points trash.

Following are some example hands. Look at them, count the negative points, and then decide whether to play them or not.

#1. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#2. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#3. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
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#4. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#5. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
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#6. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#7. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
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#8. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#9. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#10. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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#11. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
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#12. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
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Hand #1 has two negatives because it’s a rainbow hand.
Hand #2 has one negative because it’s only single suited.
Hand #3 has no negatives.
Hand #4 has three negatives. It’s a rainbow hand with a middle card.
Hand #5 has one negative. It has one middle card.
Hand #6 has three negatives: single suited (-1), two middle cards (-2).
Hand #7 has no negatives.
Hand #8 has two negatives: single suited (-1), one middle card (-1).
Hand #9 has four negatives: rainbow (-2), two middle cards (-2).
Hand #10 has two negatives because it’s a rainbow hand.
Hand #11 has one negative: single suited.
Hand #12. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

No negatives and therefore playable without doubt: #3, #7, #12.
One negative. Playable or marginal. Use discretion: #2, #5, #11.
Two negatives. Marginal. #1, #8, #10.
Three negatives. Marginal or trash. Use discretion: #4, #6.
Four negatives. Trash: #9. Fold it. You’ll feel a pang when the board has three eights, but you probably wouldn’t collect much from your opponents anyhow. It will also hurt when the board on the river is the perfect double-nut, non-flushed A456J, but that won’t happen much.

[ QUOTE ]
However, many players have been insisting to me that they hold 2,3 "no matter what" for the possible low value.

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Whatever. If you can see the flop for one small bet and if enough of your opponents also see the flop and tend to chase with poor or mediocre flop fits, then you're getting enormous implied pot odds.

However, before the flop, when you hold something like 239Tn, you have to figure you're probably only playing for half the pot. And with a bare deuce-trey at a nine player table, you figure to get quartered or sixthed roughly two hands out of every five when your bare deuce-trey isn't counterfeited or beaten by an ace-deuce or ace-trey. (Roughly half the time at least one opponent will hold ace-deuce and roughly half the time at least one opponent will hold ace-trey. Roughly three times our of four when you hold 23XY at a nine player table, at least one opponent will hold either ace-deuce or ace-trey.

Yeah, a bare deuce-trey is a nice low when it doesn't get counterfeited and when there's an ace on the board. And it's a nice low the (roughly) one time out of four when there's no ace on the board and nobody has an ace-deuce or ace-trey, but you'll dribble away more chips the many times you'll be chasing with those hands than you'll make the few times when they pay off.

23XY needs something else going it. And game and positional conditions have to be right to play the ones I've labeled as "marginal."

Just my opinion.

Buzz