[RJT]

M to the 6th,

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A quick counterexample: math exists with or without God, so why *couldn't* an independent framework of morality exist with or without God? One can argue that much math is provable and morality is not, but that doesn't invalidate the possibility of a morality framework. Something like individual needs/gain weighed against detriment to others: a sort of sliding-scale prisoner's dilemma sort of structure might be part of it. Under such a framework, seeking comparatively little personal gain at comparatively great cost to others could be considered immoral.

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Man created/invented math. Man did not discover Math. It does not exist on its own. Math is merely a language (like Spanish) we use to describe the universe. Perhaps, math can exist without God. It does not exist without man though.

Likewise, man can create/invent morality. Man can even create a morality perfect enough that all can agree to and live by. (I doubt if all can ever live by it always, if happens then you got utopia on earth is about it.) This invention of the method to achieve utopia is not Absolute Morality. It is simply a morality that would be agreed to unanimously.

Discover Absolute Morality (as opposed to invent a perfect moral system) and you either discover God or you discover the reason for the Universe (to me you probably do both simultaneously).

RJT