[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
that grimace means aw shucks i have to pay you off even though i think im beat.

anyway i hate this hand. that T and 8 are too playing zone to make the play you make on the flop. the J just makes things worse even though it gives you a nice draw. this hand is a mess, the sort of mess i used to get myself into all the time, oftentimes with good results i should note. purging hands like this from your game can only help.

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Funny, I thought you'd like it of all people. Online this play is a lot less valid, but surely plays like this work live in relatively tight games, no? From my experience last week there was far less paying off than high limit online games and far more "tough folds," sometimes face up. I do wonder if a hand like this has a place in my arsenal even if it's done 1/1000 of the time - and I think that it does. The value of getting called down and being unapolagetic about the play can go miles if you are going to play with this particular player(and the rest of the people at the table) for an extended period of time.
-James

EDIT: I should point out that of all streets, the flop is the one I like the least in spite of my strong backdoor draws.