[Piers]

Just to recap, the question is it possible for mankind or its agents to construct a theory of everything, and gain at least indirectly complete knowledge of the universe.

I said that if a theory is complicated enough to encompass everything, then it must be sufficiently sophisticated to contain the Gödel’s ‘flaw of incompleteness’. Which is really a statement on the limitations on the sort of models finite beings are able to create, i.e. if such a model is able to represent itself, then it is not cleaver enough to fully describe itself.

Quantum paradoxes aside, It appears a plausible assumption to suppose the universe itself is complete.

You are suggesting that nevertheless it is possible for mankind to create a complete model of the universe. Which given Gödel’s theorem means the model has to be surprisingly bland.

One could imagine a complete model of the universe where every distinct item in the universe is an axiom of the system and there are no rules of inference. So in effect we have a complete listing of the universe. One might even argue that the universe itself is such a model. If we were to be able to produce a model of this sort, we will have in effect produced the universe itself or an exact copy thereof!!!

Perhaps more what you are thinking of is something like the strange attractors of chaos theory. Where a few simple equations can create infinitely complex patterns with localised appearances of order. This would shift much of the problem to determining the boundary conditions.

Determining the boundary conditions is likely to resort to knowing everything about the projection of the universe onto a subspace. (So we are performing a lifting operation.)

Few straightforward equations, just find out the boundary conditions. Sounds simple enough, should not take us that long.

Sorry No, I don’t buy it. We are not going to do it. Neither is anything we create. I am willing to be as obstinate and closed minded about this as I am about the God thing.

So do you really think we might have created the universe?