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Old 11-18-2005, 12:50 AM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Purgatory (i.e. Law School)
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Default Re: Raising for free cards/ buying outs with draws PLO...

I think a solid reply to your post would probably be an entire poker book. Have you read the three PLO classics yet (PL/NL by caffione/rueben, Omaha Hold Em Poker by Caffione and How Good is Your PLO by Rueben)?

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assuming 100BB sacks and half-decent(non-donk) opponents: In an unraised pot with 3-5 players to the flop, you pick up a decent straight draw with a non-nut flush draw- say 15 outs IF they're all good (unlikely). you're in position.

There is a pot-size bet in front of you and a caller. you think your equity at this point is likely about even with the villains'. pot is around 15-20BBs and you:


-fold, don't draw to non-nuts?

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Depends on how "non-donk" the player is. But I'm not a nut peddler so folding is going to be down on the list a ways depending on the opponent. Omaha player pool is small enough you can actually get to know these guys.

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-call and draw cheaply?

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Problem with this is that when the obvious draws get there lots of these guys are weak tight and will not pay you off where as they will call a raise here.

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-raise a bit to take control, maybe get a free card?

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This is a good option. Just make sure you are consistent or consistently inconsistent. You'll have to raise a bit sometimes with top set, a massive draw or total air. Either that or randomize your bets. I have a pair of dice next to my keyboard and I often use them to decide how big I"m going to raise in position with the nuts, draws or nada.

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-raise a lot/pot it to try to force out draws that dominate yours, maybe buy the pot right there, and/or get a free card?

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This is a bit more my style. How much variance can you handle?

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-what about non flush or straight draws, like a set of fives on a 456 flop? would any of these apply?

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This is incredibly player dependent. Also, it's important, for me, to be aware of how I have been playing. Manipulating your opponents perceptions of your hand-range versus decent players is a prerequisite to a healthy win rate.

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I've been turning this one over in my head a lot, it's been one of the most challenging spots as i learn PLO... some of my speculations: for example, if, instead of 100BB stacks, it was really deep... i'd think making the big riase would be worth it more often, given that i'd have enough to continue to make meaningful bets, the raise wouldn't kill the implied odds, and so on. Against solid opponents, just call and wait to see what hapens. Against weak/ loose players, i might want to fold.. that nut flush draw isn't going anywhere... i want the nuts against donks, right?

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versus donks nut peddling is going to be pretty profitable though not optimal. There are different opinions on this but versus bad/predictable players with 100xbb stacks there isn't as much room to work with the more marginal hands. But all the big winners I know at any level of PLO have no problem pushing small 55/45 edges, making EV neutral plays to get action later, raising with non-nut draws, middle/bottom set etc. It all depends on how well you know your opponents. And, as inevitably happens, the stacks get deepish and you'll need to adjust accordingly.

One thing about PLO that struck me as I was first learning (still learning) is how divergent styles can often be more or less equally successful. I might have my opinions about what optimal play looks like under certain table conditions but then I see players playing very different styles from mine winning at a healthy clip. It's more important, I believe, to know your opponents and know what they are likely to think of you based on how you've been playing then to play any certain fixed style.

My two cents. Not sure if this helps.
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