[elysium]

hi everyone
what no one is addressing, and what i think may be getting over-looked because it's not that easy to see at first, is that the UTG was going to definately bet-out on the turn, and definately get raised by the UTG+1 who had rockets. since there was absolutely no doubt about what these opponents were holding and how the action would continue on the turn, and furthermore that the call of the 2 cold on the flop would close the action, albeit i was definately behind UTG trips, and importantly, and what i think may be getting over-looked; my two opponents each thought that he was in lead. the UTG thought that he was ahead of the UTG+1, and visa versa. that's the important thing here, and the reason itself that the fold was wrong. both of my opponents thought that they were in the lead. also, equally important, the J hitting on the turn would not produce a scary board. not only would my hand have been concealed, but it would not have done anything to discourage the raising and reraising that had ensued on the flop. and please follow me here because what i'm about to say doesn't fit so neatly into the box we sometimes think in:

so far, everyone has looked at this from the implied odds point of view because clearly, i'm not getting correct odds on the flop to make the call. then, after calculating the possible implied odds on paper, the call of 2 cold still proves sub-optimal. toss in diplomat's excellent contribution; that perhaps it would only be one BB to me on the turn, and then maybe i would scrap my read and make the call thinking i might be in the lead, and make another bad call, and this starts to look like an easy fold. and remember, i folded. i want to be told these things. however, i am riveted onto the central issue, the only issue; that i was positioned between two opponents who believed their hand was the winner, and my spike card would not have produced a scary board and my hand would have been concealed. this is the issue.

the reason for this post was to address this specific issue alone, not implied odds because on paper, we never have the correct implied odds to spike a 2 outer when faced with 2 cold. but this thinking is wrong in this specific instance. when you are positioned between two opponents, both of whom believe that their hand is best, and both of whom who would have kept on raising the flop if it didn't have a cap, and you have an over-pair to the board pair, but are clearly against at least trips, even though there is no possibility of being in the lead, it is always correct under these circumstances to call 2 cold if spiking your over-pair doesn't produce a scary board.

both winners raising and reraising? board spike no scare? call 2 cold over-pair on fwop.