[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]

What if, for the sake of argument, he DIDN'T see his flush until after, but was really fast about realizing his hand and retrieving his cards? At what point, realistically, should a mucked hand be declared once-and-for-all a dead hand? When the next person acts? When the dealer pulls the cards? Not having seen it, it's impossible to know if it was or it wasn't known by that player wether he had a hand or not. Even among the first-hand accounts, there is testimony both ways. What rule can be put in place to make this variable irrelevant, yet still be fair to the spirit of the game? Or is it just not possible to have a definitive set of rules that would eliminate the need to have a non-playing judge in cases where there is a larger, more diverse group of players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a hand is for sure dead with the start of the next hand. According to the rules that's the riffle of the deal. But since in my games the dealer isn't the shuffler I might make that when the first card is in the air. That's a bright line, you know for sure, no going back the hand is dead rule. But generally most hands should be dead before then.

When they hit the muck is a good rule, but as I cited above, hands can be retrieved from the muck when its in the best interest of the game.

Generally I would allow a guy who tossed his cards, but no into the much who immediately realized he had the best hand to retrieve them. Once the dealer has gathered them I probably wouldn't let him have them back unless something unusuall had happened like he mucked because of a player inacurately declaring his hand.

--Zetack