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If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.

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OK, I'll bite. In what sense is the universe "irrational"

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Oh no.. not again.

Here is where this first started (I think):
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...709#Post3664174

Feel free to read the rest of that thread, but here was the summary I posted in there ("you" = "NotReady"):

1) By "rational", you mean "created by an intelligent designer for a purpose".
2) You say the universe is "rational", and the non-theist says it's "irrational"
-- by your definition, this is true
3) You say "that on this presupposition (that the universe is "irrational") everything is irrational, including logic".
4) I don't think a chair is "irrational", because a human (an intelligent designer) created it for a purpose.
5) You must either have a different definition for "rational" that has yet to be explained, or not think a human is an "intelligent designer" ... or not really believe your previous statement about everything being irrational to a non-theist.

(NotReady never replied to this.)