[RJT]

The problem is that it (philosophy) won’t get you there. At least none has so far.

Chezlaw is basically correct when he says:

“Nothing at all but it doesn't take much philosophical study to realize that if such a conclusion is possible its not via the simplistic arguments usually presented (first cause, Pascal’s wager etc) and the sophisticated arguments are way beyond anyone who hasn't studied philosophy very seriously and can't possibly be the basis for most peoples belief.”

It is not that he is incorrect, rather that I think he misspoke or left something out. That is that you won’t find it in any philosophy written to date. (Nor do I think, and my guess he would probably agree, should one hope to with philosophy alone.)

To address one other of your points, Lestat, It is pure faith. Although, I wouldn’t characterize it as “nothing more”. This is one of my primary realizations at this point in my life, so far - that is, Faith is enough, for now - ’cuz that’s all we got, now. (I want to interject a brief note as I understand it, since you mentioned David S. One of his main points, as I understand it is: That, so long as we believers realize it might be illogical and perhaps even silly to believe what we do, that is ok, just so that we don’t actually think it makes “sense”. Believe it true, fine, just don’t fool ourselves into thinking it does. And it (whatever one believes) might indeed be true. But, not provable, therefore not relevant to him.)

I have a few favorite quotes:

Hegel said “[Philosophy is only] its own time reflected in thought.

Thomas Merton (a now deceased, Catholic monk in the 20th century) said something to the effect that “Faith takes over when reason can say no more.”

I do think, though, that with a good foundation in philosophy (if for no other reason than to follow good logic but also, to and see how “man” has thought throughout history) one’s faith is enhanced.

I am only really familiar with Christianity (and some Judaism, from which it sprang) but my religion is steeply based in what man has thought from the beginning of recorded thought. One can’t help, after reading even ancient mythology to the Pre-Socratics to Socrates and then on, smile when one reads our Gospels as we can see such similar (almost a linear) progression (?) in thinking.

The difference between agnostics and me is that I “believe” I will find (not quite completely there yet) Truth in my religion. I am not being literal here. What I mean is that it will be enough for me. It is enough for me.


I think (especially after having become aware of some basics of what scientist are thinking and working from this forum) that science and religion can come together for some interesting new “philosophies”.

The thing for me (especially, knowing that we won’t get much further in my lifetime) is the journey. Not a final answer.

Not to bore you with my life history, but basically: been there done that. I was raised and educated Catholic. Went through all the phases that I guess most do - doubt, unbelief, then thinking I’ll take a look around, then the searching (mine started with philosophy, hit the dead-end, then some theology) and now a realization that one either takes a leap of Faith or one doesn’t.

I became much more interested in my Faith when I started my volunteer work at my church. Between giving my life more purpose, I get to work with sincere folk. One can see in some of the really good people, that there sure as heck seems like God is real. Maybe it is all nonsense and imagination - but I like what I (think) see. I find a life with theology, if not better, then at least more interesting (certainly more challenging to me) than one without it.

Bottom line - for those of us non scientists - I suggest start with philosophy, then if you are still interested go on to some theology. Makes good reading anyway.

I’m off to take a look at some science now on my journey.

p.s Another of my favorite quotes is by Bob Dylan “Don’t follow leaders”. (Personally, I make one exception - hint: He has a religion named after Him. I better give another hint, it starts with a Chr and not an Skl - maybe I just should have said “already” named after him.) Learn from leaders sure.