[wuwei]

I think the number of people in the hand is a very important, and thus the second hand you describe is worse than the first. In #2, you have a newbie (presumably too loose and too passive) who raises you on 7th in a multiway pot. You had put him on a flush draw. Next, you have a solid player who likely has some hand reading ability and had a similar read. He reraises. I don't think we're good here 1 in 10 times.

In hold em, I found that my game improved when I started respecting moves from non tricky players in multiway situations, stuff like folding top pair to a player who check raises the field in a multiway pot on the turn.