[TTChamp]

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When a given hand is viewed from the point of view of the fundamental TOP, there is one right play, and it is impossible for two players to both play a hand correctly. For example, in a HU NL game, the sb goes all-in with AA, the BB looks down and has KK. By the fundamental TOP the BB is making a "mistake" by calling.

But this is useless from a practical point of view (I know that is heresy, hopefully I don't get banned). From a practical point of view, the BB puts the SB on a range of hands (e.g. TT-AA, and AQ-AK, and a 5% chance of a bluff) and notes that KK is profitable against this range. Therefor the BB should call. Let's use the words "error free" to describe the BB's play with KK since there seems to be a lot of objection to the words mistake-free.

It is possible for both players to play a hand "error-free". In the context of the FTOP, it is not possible for both players to play "mistake free" poker (save split situations).

I would like to see replies from anyone who disagrees with the last paragraph (including you David!).


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You are failing to consider the difference between strategic and mathematical mistakes that Xhad mentioned in his post. As a result, you are entirely wrong that it is impossible for both players to play a hand mistake free. If I have AA and I know that my opponent has KK, then I am going to bet. No FTOP mistake so far. If I have KK and my opponent just pushed all in preflop, ordinarily, I would call for the reasons you mentioned. My hand is better than the range I put him on. That would be a FTOP mistake if he had AA. However, if I knew he had AA, then I would fold. That would be the mathematically correct play unless I was BB and he (or I) had a very small stack. While it isn't likely for someone to lay down KK in this spot, it would be the correct play. If BB lays down the KK, then neither player has made a FTOP mistake. It wouldn't lead to a very interesting game, and it certainly wouldn't be a profitable game, but it is possible for two players to both make the correct play in a hand.

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Good point, I should have been more precise. I was speaking of hands that get to SD. There is no way for both players to get to SD playing "mistake-free" in the context of the FTOP (save split possibilities). There is the possibility for both to play "error-free" and get to SD.

Agreed?