Re: Murder and free will
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The original statement:
What you describe is what I meant by "irrational skepticism." If you make the statement that "the universe is unintelligible" That is an intelligent statement about the universe, and thus is self-contradictory, it cannot logically stand. Now of course, you can deny logic, but this needs to be logically sound itself in order to stand "logic is false" means "logic is true" (now that you throw out the laws of logic). But if you say there is some possibility of knowledge, then it is necessary to presuppose the entire biblical worldview.
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You said:
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<snipping all of my statements>
I used the term ultimate form of knowledge because you seem to think that logic must represent truth and falsity in their Platonic form. Logic is the main tool humans have to understand existence. However, I do not think that since something is logically true that is is true in the Platonic sense. In short, existence itself is irrational and not bound by logic. Human understanding is bound by logic, and therefore is not an ultimate form of understanding because it is only superficial truth and falsity that we perceive.
***We do know what is true and false by utilizing our tool for understanding the world: logic. I stated we understand the world as best we can since logic itself cannot fully describe existence since logic does not represent truth and falsity in Platonic form. However, within human experience, the truth and falsity that can be determined by logic is both good enough and all we have.
***You make no argument here. You simply state your opinion. Having read my epistemological views, you can see that I disagree with your opinion.
I think I already have answered this question above, but I will summarize. Humans come to know the world through our faculty of logic. Existence itself is not fully bound by logic. Essentially, we are the people in Plato's cave, with logic being the lens through which we view the shadows on the wall, which are representative of reality, but only in a very limited sense. We do come to know the world partially through logic, but it is only a shadow of all that is actually there. I have no problem with that. It appears to me to be a universal characteristic of Christians that they do have a problem with that.
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I still am having kind of a hard time comprehending what exactly you mean, so please forgive my ignorance. I have not read up on Kant at all. What is "Platonic logic"? I'm guessing its a reference to Plato but I have not formally studied logic so I don't know what it is.
I guess I'll explain my position and make my best guesses to yours, and if you could correct and expound on anything I get wrong regarding yours that would be really helpful.
For me:
Knowledge is a collection of prepositions (if you disagree with this we can talk about it, but that is my operating definition). God, by His nature knows all prepositions (and also knows the truth or falsity of all prepositions, but that can also be expressed by a preposition.). He grants us knowledge by His soveign will. Logic is the mechanism by which God thinks and forms the world (if you can put him in a temporal sense, which you cannot). We, being made in the image of God think logically as well.
My best guess as to your position is that: Existence (aka the universe and everything in it as well as any non-corpreal things) cannot be bound by this definition of knowledge (either it defined by prepositions, or it can be partially defined by prepositions but cannot be wholly defined by prepositions), but we as humans can only think using that definition because... well just because. (You'll have to clarify this)
I guess where I'm still confused is where you make the assumption that the universe cannot be expressed by logic since logic is all we know. We cannot interact with this non-logical aspect if it indeed exists, and we cannot gain any knowledge nor prove anything about it. I'm wondering what impact this "non-logical" aspect of the universe can have since it seems like it cannot, and does not, impact us.
That's where I'm at right now, if you could expound a little on your terminology (and correct me where I misrepresent you) that would be really helpful. Thanks.
PS this board has done wonders for my logical thinking abilities (though my poker game is shot).
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