Re: Chasing
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I was referring to rasing before the flop as a means of allowing myself to be more likely to have the proper pot odds to CALL on this sort of flop.
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Jim - Why on earth would you want to get yourself stuck in a pot when you have a poor fit with the flop???
All the limpers will probably secretly (or overtly) groan, tentatively put you on A-2-3-X, and toss in another bet. Thus you do give yourself better pot odds for the second betting round by raising before the flop from late position. However, you also give all your opponents better pot odds for the second betting round. In addition, you may not get more from them on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds (despite their slightly better odds) when you do catch a nice fit with the flop yourself.
There are some excellent reasons for raising before the flop, but raising to increase your pot odds on the second betting round is not one of them.
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If however, It is checked to me, I will sometimes bet this kind of flop. (I raised pre-flop AcQcJT and the flop comes Jc7d3s). My opponents "put me on low". and some of them are the sort who would be betting the stronger high hands, so my high pair may not all that bad after all.
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Well... yes it is that bad, after all. However, you've made a good point. By raising with a starting hand with which you should limp if indeed you play it at all, you do throw your opponents off the track.
You would be a tough opponent for me to face. I'll give you that. To counter your helter skelter pre-flop raising strategy, I'd probably start largely ignoring your raises, but I'd still keep a suspicious eye on you, carefully watching to see if and when you changed gears. But you'd be tough to face.
AcQcJT is not a premium high hand in Omaha-8. And when the flop is Jc7d3s, you missed a decent fit with it. Period.
And you seem to recognize that fact when you write, "I have only a few shbby outs for half a pot."
For that particular flop you want A2XY or JJXY. (Something like QT98 would be all right too, but you shouldn't be voluntarily playing middle-card-crap like QT98 (even if double suited) in a limit-Omaha-8 game).
Are you going to play AcQcJT for probably half the pot after you, yourself, recognize you missed the flop? I don't care if you cost yourself two bets on the first betting round or not. It's time to dump that hand.
I think there are places to bluff in this game, but I don't think this is a good spot to try.
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Now look what happens after I bet...
If a low card comes, they check to my non-existant nut low.
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Baloney. Holding either A2XY or A4XY after this flop, I'm betting straight into you, just to see what you'll do. (I'm more likely to hold A2XY than A4XY). I have opponents who will bet into you with less than that.
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Now I get a free shot at a river
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Dream on.
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that I would not pay to see because I have only a few shbby outs for half a pot.
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It's good for you that you recognize that.
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Maybe the turn is an 8 and I river a A, J or 9, all of which are probably going to give me the high fairly often.
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Yes, granted there are some ways you can win high and even scoop - especially if you catch runner-runner. Or your pair of jacks might hold up for a scooper. But that all seems kind of far fetched to me. Sure, it's possible - but I think it would be a mistake to play for it.
But I don't think it's a bad idea to raise before the flop sometimes with a hand that probably shouldn't raise. Good advertising - and tough to play against!
Just my opinion.
Buzz
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