ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG I guess this is the reason that I continue to play poker and play sucessfully. Jesus christ guys just getting back from work today and reading all of these replys posts hurts my head. I think there are a few important things to remember about my anaylisis of the situation. First I don't disagree with anyone completely that said that three betting is a good play here, in fact in many situations and against many opponents the three bet is going to be the better play as pointed out by many people in this post. (Whether they pointed out any reasoning what soever or not) The thing that upsets me and makes me giggle is the fact taht very few of you see any value to the alternate play i have suggested. Like I mentioned in one of my preveious posts, the difference for me as a poker player is who I am up agaisnt. As I have said if your only anaylisis of your opponents is "SUper fish" then it doesn't matter if you three bet, smooth call, or throw the hand away it is my belief you will lose in the long run. The difference for me is if i put the preflop raiser on AK and I know his tendance is to muck on the turn into a raise if he doesn't improve, I'll take control of the hand on the turn. I will also wait till the turn if my table image represents a solid player that will even slow down the worst of donkeys (which sometimes it will and sometimes it won't) I play in games in Seattle ranging from 8-16 to 30-60 and most even ultra aggro players preflop and on the flop slow down to check call on the turn and river, unless they have a hand or are value betting. I love the cold call play if I am up against donkeys that love to value bet the turn with ace high, middle pair, pocket tens with this board, even a bigger flush draw etc. I agree that if you have decided that your opponents are bad enough that you will have to show the winner then sure three bet the hell out of it. It just amazes me how no one even really gives any credibility to any play except three betting. I think the ability of any good poker player is the ability to be able to 'change gears' be able to alter his or her play based on the ability, tendancy, and knowing his or her opponents.

Now for the line by line....

Newhizzle, yes i know what a mathematical favorite we are to hit this hand and win the hand (under the assumption that our draws are good.) I am just proposing a different way of playing the hand where dependign on who I am up against I'll be able to make nut diamonds fold the river if they miss, ace king, ace queen, pocket tens, maybe jacks, etc a field of hands. Where I play if a hand like jacks commits to a big pot on the flop he/she will check call out, yet if i make two bets on the turn increasingly likely I can force that hand to fold as well as a rag hand like Q 2 spades or whatever....

Shant, Yea i can think of much worse scenarios but it doesn't matter. IT is a real scenario taht if you don't realize is out there you will pay off every time. Of course if the black six hits and you get check raised then you should three bet the flop every time. I can't think of a game taht soft where your going to get check raised very often in that situation.... but if your opponents are truely that bad and reckless then yes forget anything that resembles fancey and just play them straight up like it seems i would have to do against most of you.

Dazarath I agree that what you said makes sence and is sensible. I think here is where it comes down to really making sure you know your opponents and how they will interact with you and how you bet. If the preflop raises is ultra aggro and will value bet the turn 2/3's of the time with most of the hands he'll raise with and say it gets capped on the flop then I don't know if i like your three bet on the flop. I like if i hit my hand that has a lot of draws retaining the abilty to pop the turn. I love people who value bet the flop and the turn even, if they do this they will continue to lose money to me over time because of this play. As far as worrying about the higher flush in your King Queen of spade situation of course you have to worry about it. You can still assume your hand is good but i don't think it'd be wise to raise all the way out in that situation if there isn't a board pair and is no four flush? I think that's foolish unless you know your opponents. I think the things that we need to remember in poker is I believe all anaylisis is subjective to the players we are up against and how they play.

Entity,
A, your right no one said you have to bet the turn, but then again I'm assuming that if you hit any of your outs espically a diamond here you will be betting the turn not check calling the rest of the hand. If you automatically assume your diamonds are not good you should throw away on the flop obviously. So it is easily assumed that with the turn being a diamond and they check to you that you will bet and open yourself to check raise from a hand with bigger diamonds.
b) I agree we are the favorite subject to a cruel act of the card gods, but it doesnt' matter two things that need to be addressed is alternate ways of maximizing a hand, and then making sure our play best suits the way to maximize value based opun our opposition.

Lastly Victor,
The fact that you think it's stupid means it worked, I vary my play enough that i will only maybe one out of 5 times bet a dry turn with a big draw (12 outs +) I do this because usually i get the table image of being a rock and can use this to value bet, steal and use some misdirection to outwit my opponents and pick up extra bets. The fact that you have no idea why i'm doing this is reason enough. I mean against a player like you that is so one dimentional and can not understand advanced play and against a lot of negative players, making it two bets back to them can even sometimes make them fold aces. Depending on who your playing against. I love the part why raise with little chance of picking up the pot. This is just a dumb statement, I will not make this play if I belive there is little way I will pick up the pot, the only way there is little way I will pick up the pot is if I have misread my opponents or the strength of their hand. If that is true then yes i am the pidgeon in this hand. WHich i am assuming is not going to be the case. And to answer your last question like anything it just depends on teh situation and how the other person plays. But no obviously I am not one of those players that just blatently rasies anytime i pick up any draw on the turn. I am a very calculated player. K my head hurts now good bye for now. I hope at least a few of you terrible players have learned a thing or two and if not come to Seattle. There is a 100-200 seat for you waiting right next to me. I'll even let you chose left or right side of me. -ANdrew