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Old 09-24-2005, 10:50 PM
phish phish is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 47
Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

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Thanks so much for all your replies!!! After reading all your posts....I think DcifrThs hit the nail on the head. Many good players do not value bet marginal hands enough where an advanced player knows when his marginal or even weak hand is best. I think this is a player reading skill...which can be hard when multitabling. I have a tendency to rely on stats...but stats only tell us a portion of what we need to know. So, one missed value bet every 100 hands...well, that's it!!!

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I disagree. In the progression of a poker player thin valuebetting is just an extension of agressive style. Advanced players transcend this and learn how to save bets. It is so much harder and riskier to fold for 1 bet on the river than putting in an extra one (to give one example).

It occurs to me that some of the best players posting in this forum are probably those with the highest percentage of fold advice (James282 and Paluka comes to mind).

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I disagree. As you say, it is much riskier to try to save a bet, since folding a winner at the end is the single biggest mistake you can make in poker. And don't you think the smarter players will pick up on this tendency and try to take advantage of it. And even if you're aware of it and adjust, it still means that you'll be put to the test more, which is never a good thing.

And looking at the poker literature, all the top pros stress the importance of not trying too hard to save that bet:
Greenstein in his recent book says one difference between the best players vs. the merely great is that the best players aren't worry so much about saving bets as they are in not doing anything stupid that may cost them the pot. (Such as betting a medium-strenght hand with the intention of folding when raised)
Jennifer Harmon in her chapter on holdem in SS II and Chip Reese in his stud chapter also both emphasize the importance of calling on the river.

I'm not suggesting that we should all be calling stations, but I certainly don't think this is what separates the good from the great. If anything, I think that the great players are better able to avoid getting in these difficult situations. But when faced with it, they won't be afraid to throw in that last bet.

(Also, funny you mentioned Paluka. I was in a hand against him recently where i was the aggressor the whole way and against most other players would have given up and checked the river given the texture of the board (lots of cards a reasonable BB defender could have). But since it was Paluka, i did fire that last bet and he folded. He might've simply had a busted flush draw, but all i had was jack high.)
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