[k_squared]

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One other thing... their is a reason that having position means acting after someone... it is because it affords an advantage. If you raise weak cards under the gun out of position and think that acting first provides you with a substantial advantage then you are mistaken. Against some players this might be the case, but against good opponents they will notice your tendency to raise with weak cards and constantly be betting into you when you are out of position.


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Respectfully, K_Squared, I think you've misinterpreted Binions a bit here. I believe Binions is well aware of the general benefits of acting with position; he's simply talking about the special case of having relative position regarding the preflop raiser. You get the idea: the blinds and then you check to the UTG+1 raiser, he presumably bets out, and then you get to see how everybody else reacts to the bet. You've got a positional advantage of sorts yourself now.

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While I understand your point regarding relative position, I actually don't agree with you that it is a major point of emphasis in the situation of determining whether or not to limp in UTG. Your relative positional advantage comes only when you are facing a group of players who will raise very predicatably. Otherwise you leave yourself in bad position by playing UTG, which leaves you at a disadvantage.

Is your default play to check the flop no matter what?
What do you do when someone behind bets out? Can you be sure also that a raise will limit the field to you and the 2 blinds... many of the games I play in this is not the case... If you will check the flop all the time you do hide your strength but also will give people the chance to draw cheaply to their hands by not putting pressure on them, not to mention anytime you do something predicatbly you give an advantage to your opponent. Many authors warn about the tendency to check to the raiser.

To be clear, I do think a relative positional advantage does exist, but that UTG it is the place where it will be of the lease import because more often than from any other position you will have multiple callers even when a raise is put in (as a result of their being more people to act after). I also believe that the advantage you derive from checking and hence taking on the relative position is diluted in part by the fact that you are going to be put into a position where you are not going to be able to call with many hands you would bet with (Gap principle... better cards to call... especially if you are out of position nd even more so if facing a field, unless it is a drawing hand in which case the appropriate pot odds are where they derive their strength).

In general, I feel like the place that relative position takes on the most importance is when you are in middle position make a call and face a single raiser from late position who will bet out every time it is checked to them.

I also agree with Binion that getting raised is not necessarily a bad thing! Often times it helps thin a field in which case you will have a much better sense of where you stand following the flop. You can also take advantage of an aggressive raisers tendency to continue betting following a raise.

Sorry for the rant, just trying to flesh out my thoughts in regard to the comments made regarding limping UTG and jtr's comments about raising. My point remains though, that relative position is not as good as having REAL position except in special circumstances.

-k_squared