[Vanquish]

You're absolutely right Cleveland about another Ace hitting giving him the straight. And after reading through these other posts I can see that I was over simplifying things a little bit. Yes I overlooked that the turn card can create additional outs for each player on the river, and from there I can see the value of a hand simulator. I'm sure I could sit and calculate the precise probability (yeah, saying "odds" only confuses things) that each would win that hand, but that's the problem. To get the exact number you would have to calculate the probability for each unique hand/board combination, and that's just way too much work. So I recant... I see the value of the hand simulators, but also their limitations, and you can correct me if I'm wrong jtr. They're good for after the fact analysis, but not so much for checking pot odds during play since they are necessarily card dependent?

So thanks to barking for confirming my math, and that seems to be what I'll need to stick with for my pot odds/calling guidelines. I also see the value of the odds ratio format for this rather than using probability, but I'm having a hell of a time mentally looking at a figure like 13.5:1 and quickly figuring out how large I bet I can call given the size of the pot. Anyone else have trouble with this? How do you approach it mentally? Is it: Look at the bet size, multiply it by 13.5. If the pot is larger than what you just calculated, then you have pot odds to call? It might just be me, but that's not as natural a thing for my brain to do... I might have to start carrying an odds sheet around with me. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Thanks again.