[CJC]

Hi,

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The point I was making about limping is in that scenario was that if you are raised then there is a strong possibility that you are up against an overpair

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True.. but in Stud, as the antes get higher and higher.. it becomes more important to 'chase' anyways.. which means it becomes more important to raise and re-raise with your 'other' pairs.. Also, those secondary outs you don't value, really DO become important..

Hence, my original posts ask about which games, ante size etc...

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The point about concealed pairs v split pair accepting that you need to improve to win in this scenario nothing kills action quicker than a paired door

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True.. which is WHY you use this knowledge to your adventage. ( a.k.a mixing thigs up ) There are plently of times you pair your doorcard and WANT people to fold. I am not suggesting that split pairs are better, but I am not suggesting they are any WORSE than conceled pairs. You just have to know how to play them differently. I wont throw away a slpit pair of eight just because they are split.. I will use several other factors to make my determaination.

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The point about the secondary outs is that they do not make the hand playable because you need to get 2 cards to have a powerful draw by 5th street you miss on 4th and they are pretty much dead. I would trade them for an Ace kicker

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To generalize myself, I would probably trade for an Ace kicker myself, but there are several instances those secondary outs make a HUGE difference, ESPECIALLY in loose games.

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would suggest the fastest way to go broke is call heavy action from an number of overcards with a middle pair into the latter betting rounds

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I thought this post started with discussing third street?

CJ