[Buzz]

Mosta -

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When you initiate a bet or make a raise you are putting in MORE money than you need to to win the money on the table (in an accounting sense, not considering any strategic sense in which the bigger bet may help you win). You only count pot odds in terms of the minimum you have to pay to play in the pot. What you put in above and beyond that would be for its own separate, additional return, based on how many people SUBSEQUENTLY call you.

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Exactly. Strictly from the standpoint of getting favorable odds on your investment, what you voluntarily put in the pot beyond what is required depends on how much you opponents will also contribute. It has nothing (except maybe obliquely - see Fraubump's post) to do with how much is already in the pot.

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Suppose you have a four-flush on the turn and you are highly confident that you win if you make the flush and lose if you don't. First to act bets, all fold to you, you are last to act. First you consider whether to call. You decide that by comparing the odds of making the flush to the odds your call gets versus the pot (which includes the first guy's turn bet). Now consider raising. That is putting in more money than you need to, to draw to your flush. And your only return on that additional, extra investment is the single possible caller (1:1--ignoring bluff value of winning the pot--assume you are confident he is not going to fold on the turn). Now suppose it was heads up on the turn and checked to you. Deciding whether to bet out in this case is the same as deciding whether to raise in the previous case. It only generates a new return of 1:1 on a draw that is not 50-50.

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Exactly. Let me emphasize that there are other reasons for raising than because you are getting favorable odds on your money.

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The essential point is that raises and bets (as opposed to calls) are EXTRA, above and beyond what is required to play for the pot. The return of the pot is only applied to what it costs to be in the pot.

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Exactly.

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The pot is not a return on what you put in beyond what is required to be in the pot.

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I haven't ever thought of it in that way, but that makes sense to me.

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What you put in extra generates a separate, additional return when it is called by other players.

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Exactly.

Buzz