[shemp]

So you're telling me that any J or 9 or AcJc, KcJc, KhJh, or hands like QcTc, KcTc, (or KTo), etc that rivers a pair (and many more) check fold the river or is it you are complaining that there aren't a lot of hands like that? Also, the socalled maniac will not 4bet a 15 out hand on the turn because "she is not an idiot". Well, apparently, she's not a maniac either, and the reason she loves to makes moves on the turn (as you described) is because she is playing with a puppy who doesn't punish them. And if she'll only 4-bet a hand that beats AA, why do you need to call the river if you don't improve? Oh. And listen Focker. It doesn't workout the same because she may improve to a callable hand or based on the river card she may decide that a bluff is hopeless.