[sthief09]

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on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

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Just saying non-queen pair is too vague IMO here. Many of Josh's non-queen pairs are strong enough to take to showdown here, so why forgo that EV? If you drew the line and said that pairs below X are not profitable to call the turn with, those would be the ones you'd want to bluff 3-bet with (I'd prefer a non-pocket pair though so you have more outs). I also like the turn 3-bet with a draw that can't win unimproved.

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read my response to his, because i think he and i are on the same page and i elaborated a little more.

my EV in this situation is a weighted average (weighted by his types of hands) of the cause and effect of each of my actions. the best play is the one that, on average, has the biggest upside over the rest. sometimes, of two completely different lines, one HAS to be better. say I 3-bet the turn. if he has a hand worth 4-betting, i have to fold but almost certainly (on this board especially) folded very few outs. this is no different from calling the turn and river. in each cause i lose 2, and i give up very little equity by folding the turn. so while getting to showdown and folding to a 4-bet are completely different (and i know i always preach GET TO SHOWDOWN), they will have the same net effect. the times he calls I'm usually beat but I still get to draw. my line is so weird that of the rare times I have him beat, he won't often bluff, so again, against a hand like TPTK that won't cap the turn, the net effect of raising vs calling is 0. the big advantage comes from the times he has a slightly better made hand and folds, or will fold a 6-outer rather than getting to check behind the river. I steal about 1/4 of the pot plus a bet I'd have to give up on the river to pay him off.

so as it turns out, while these are two drastically different lines, most of the time (90%+) it'll work out the same. the best decision comes from the times they won't be the same. in this case, 3-betting is worse when he will bluff the river or cap when I have outs. 3-betting is better when he has AK (and I have something like 62 for middle pair no kicker) or TT-77, A6, K6 and i dont have thoes beat