[Warik]

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So you're saying that the only way to show whether or not torture is justified is whether or not it results in information?

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Sorry, I was not clear. Let me rephrase.

Torture is justified if the organization authorizing the procedure can prove that both:

a) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that specific terrorist activity (i.e. a bus bombing in Chicago as opposed to "a bomb in the US") endagering human life is to take place in the near future (i.e. this month as opposed to "sometime during the Bush administration).

and

b) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that the individual being subjected to torture may be privy to information (i.e. leader/organizer/commander/lieutenant as opposed to gun-toting grunt or "random guy who was caught delivering gym bag to X person at Y time in Z location") and that the information one expects to extract can prevent that event from taking place.

I don't see anything unreasonable about that. The torture does not necessarily need to result in information - there just needs to be proof that there was probable cause that information was being withheld by the subject.

It's analagous to the police searching your car for contraband. If I'm driving a brand new car registered in my name, insured in my name, with my valid driver license presented, a fresh new car smell, and 0.00 BAC, the police officer has no right under the Fourth Amendment. If he violates my rights, it could jeopardize the case against me and strengthen my case against them if I decide to file a lawsuit. Likewise, the organization in question would have to cover its ass when making a decision to torture a suspect.

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I just want to be sure that I understand your position that we shouldn't torture people unless they give us information, but they won't give us information unless we torture them.

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Well, if they gave us the information, we wouldn't need to torture them... so the information comes after the torture. You're on the right track though.

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Quite a little catch-22 you've got going there.

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Not when you read it correctly. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]