[DVaut1]

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I don't really understand your whole killing/murder difference. If you kill a human being it's murder, if you kill a pig it's a killing.

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I'm sure you can recognize the idea that not all killings are murder.

If you kill in self-defense, it's not murder, for instance -- and that's instantly recognizable; I don't know anyone who would argue that killing in self-defense is tantamount to murder. Perhaps more debatable are such things like killing someone in a war, capital punishment, etc. Regardless, there are many ways in which humans cause the deaths of other humans that we'd uniformly call a 'killing' but not call a murder - hence the distinction.

To put it as simply as possible (and putting our strict dictionary definitions aside): murder is the unjustified premature ending of a life. Even that may not be simple enough -- I don't doubt adding 'premature' might open up my definition for debate. And I think my definition is terribly crude; but what I'm trying to get across is that we internally rationalize all murders as being unjustified -- which is not the case for all killings (keeping in mind that we readily accept the notion that self-defense is widely accepted and justified form of killing).

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I mean when you kill a pregnant women you aren't charged with 1.3 homicides.

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We're not talking about the legal ramifications, or how states recognize personhood (although I think it's a terribly interesting conversation to have). We're just having a philosophical discourse here. So merely because the state doesn't charge someone with 1.3 homicides doesn't mean that I necessarily agree that fetuses are equal to other post-natal humans -- surely in the same way that many pro-lifers don't feel that merely because the state approves of abortions means they have to accept them, either morally, ethically, or philosophically.

Regardless, while I might not be charged with 1.3 homicides, I think the much more interesting inquiry is to how I would be punished for killing a pregnant woman (and I would venture a guess that it varies across the justice system) - in other words, if I were to kill a pregnant woman: is the justice system normatively applying relatively consistent penalities? Would I get the same jail time as typically handed to those who have committed 1 homicide? Would I get the same jail time as typically handed to those who have committed 2 homicides? Would it fall somewhere in between? Such a study (I doubt one exists but I'd be fascinated to see one) might shed some light on how the justice system truly views the status of the fetus.

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I don't really agree with the concept of something being partially human. We don't really have any laws or concept surrounding a being that is partially human.

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I think we do -- even if we don't readily admit it. But fetuses, or the 'brain dead', the comatose, etc. -- I think we all have internal conceptions of such people which may be something less than human. The Terri Schiavo case is a rather clear one (in my mind) of how the law will recognize some entity as being 'partially' human - and I think abortion laws may apply here as well.

I'll bow out of this discussion here and let this thread return the subject of the OP -- anyone (leighguy, for instance) who would like to slap me around on this is free to PM me or start a new thread, etc.