[ QUOTE ]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Pot Size
Win % 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
1/1 100.0% 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 14.00 15.00 16.00 17.00 18.00 19.00 20.00
1/2 50.0% 4.00 4.50 5.00 5.50 6.00 6.50 7.00 7.50 8.00 8.50 9.00 9.50
1/3 33.3% 2.33 2.67 3.00 3.33 3.67 4.00 4.33 4.67 5.00 5.33 5.67 6.00
1/4 25.0% 1.50 1.75 2.00 2.25 2.50 2.75 3.00 3.25 3.50 3.75 4.00 4.25
1/5 20.0% 1.00 1.20 1.40 1.60 1.80 2.00 2.20 2.40 2.60 2.80 3.00 3.20
1/6 16.7% 0.67 0.83 1.00 1.17 1.33 1.50 1.67 1.83 2.00 2.17 2.33 2.50
1/7 14.3% 0.43 0.57 0.71 0.86 1.00 1.14 1.29 1.43 1.57 1.71 1.86 2.00
1/8 12.5% 0.25 0.38 0.50 0.63 0.75 0.88 1.00 1.13 1.25 1.38 1.50 1.63
1/9 11.1% 0.11 0.22 0.33 0.44 0.56 0.67 0.78 0.89 1.00 1.11 1.22 1.33
1/10 10.0% 0.00 0.10 0.20 0.30 0.40 0.50 0.60 0.70 0.80 0.90 1.00 1.10
1/11 9.1% -0.09 0.00 0.09 0.18 0.27 0.36 0.45 0.55 0.64 0.73 0.82 0.91
1/12 8.3% -0.17 -0.08 0.00 0.08 0.17 0.25 0.33 0.42 0.50 0.58 0.67 0.75
1/13 7.7% -0.23 -0.15 -0.08 0.00 0.08 0.15 0.23 0.31 0.38 0.46 0.54 0.62
1/14 7.1% -0.29 -0.21 -0.14 -0.07 0.00 0.07 0.14 0.21 0.29 0.36 0.43 0.50
1/15 6.7% -0.33 -0.27 -0.20 -0.13 -0.07 0.00 0.07 0.13 0.20 0.27 0.33 0.40
1/16 6.3% -0.38 -0.31 -0.25 -0.19 -0.13 -0.06 0.00 0.06 0.13 0.19 0.25 0.31
1/17 5.9% -0.41 -0.35 -0.29 -0.24 -0.18 -0.12 -0.06 0.00 0.06 0.12 0.18 0.24
1/18 5.6% -0.44 -0.39 -0.33 -0.28 -0.22 -0.17 -0.11 -0.06 0.00 0.06 0.11 0.17
1/19 5.3% -0.47 -0.42 -0.37 -0.32 -0.26 -0.21 -0.16 -0.11 -0.05 0.00 0.05 0.11
1/20 5.0% -0.50 -0.45 -0.40 -0.35 -0.30 -0.25 -0.20 -0.15 -0.10 -0.05 0.00 0.05
1/21 4.8% -0.52 -0.48 -0.43 -0.38 -0.33 -0.29 -0.24 -0.19 -0.14 -0.10 -0.05 0.00
1/22 4.5% -0.55 -0.50 -0.45 -0.41 -0.36 -0.32 -0.27 -0.23 -0.18 -0.14 -0.09 -0.05
1/23 4.3% -0.57 -0.52 -0.48 -0.43 -0.39 -0.35 -0.30 -0.26 -0.22 -0.17 -0.13 -0.09
1/24 4.2% -0.58 -0.54 -0.50 -0.46 -0.42 -0.38 -0.33 -0.29 -0.25 -0.21 -0.17 -0.13
1/25 4.0% -0.60 -0.56 -0.52 -0.48 -0.44 -0.40 -0.36 -0.32 -0.28 -0.24 -0.20 -0.16
1/26 3.8% -0.62 -0.58 -0.54 -0.50 -0.46 -0.42 -0.38 -0.35 -0.31 -0.27 -0.23 -0.19
1/27 3.7% -0.63 -0.59 -0.56 -0.52 -0.48 -0.44 -0.41 -0.37 -0.33 -0.30 -0.26 -0.22
1/28 3.6% -0.64 -0.61 -0.57 -0.54 -0.50 -0.46 -0.43 -0.39 -0.36 -0.32 -0.29 -0.25
1/29 3.4% -0.66 -0.62 -0.59 -0.55 -0.52 -0.48 -0.45 -0.41 -0.38 -0.34 -0.31 -0.28
1/30 3.3% -0.67 -0.63 -0.60 -0.57 -0.53 -0.50 -0.47 -0.43 -0.40 -0.37 -0.33 -0.30
</pre><hr />

Conclusion:
It sure looks like folding on the river in a big pot isn't nearly as bad as we make it out to be. Was Ed Miller wrong?

Example from chart:
Pot is 20BB and our opponent bets into us. We need to be good 5% of the time for the call to be correct. This is obvious.

Now if our winning chances are actually 6.7% (1/15) then we net a profit of 0.25BB's. But if our winning chances are only 3.3% (1/30) then we lose 0.33 BB's on the hand. Both of these scenarios represent a 1.7% change from our break even point. But, we can also look at the case where we are 1/25 (4%), which would be the a change of 5 hands in the denominator (6.7% is 1/15 and 4% is 1/25 and the breakeven point is 1/20...) and find that we lose 0.2 BB's per hand which is a similar amount to what we win when we look at it in the opposite direction.

Help me understand the results of this table which is basically looking at our EV of calling 1 big bet on the river in a pot of various size vs. our chance of winning that pot. It appears that incorrectly calling for one bet on the river is worth almost the same as incorrectly folding. (If calling is worth +0.25 then folding is -0.25.)

ps. To simplify the results it apears to me that folding the river incorrectly is not nearly as bad as we think it is. If we incorrectly call just as often as we incorrectly fold the EV of both of these plays are very very similar, and this is not what we have been told. And not what I have believed for a long long time.

pps. In fact, it appears that calling on the river incorrectly is AT LEAST as big of mistake as folding the river incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]


I need to eliminate some confusion. There are several mistakes in the example you provided.
First off, you are using the column for a 19BB pot, not 20BB.
Secondly, if our winning chances are 6.7% (1/15), then we net a profit of 0.33BB's, not 0.25BB's (you accidentally read from the 1/16 row), which is exactly equal in magnitude to what we lose if our winning chances were only 3.3% (1/30). Your EV is symmetric around 5% with respect to the offset in your judgement.

Next, the case of 1/25 (4%) is not a change of "5 hands in the denominator." The denominator does not represent the 'number of hands,' it is just the denominator of a fraction expressing how often you think you're good - it has no physical representation.

So what does all this tell us?
It tells us that if we judge that we have a 5% of being good in a 19 BB pot, and our judgement is 100% accurate, then we neither gain nor lose by calling or folding. If our judgement is too optimistic by x% then we lose the same amount on a call that we would gain if our judgement was pessimistic by x%.

But do judgements really work that way? Is it just as likely that your guess of being good 5% of the time is really 7% as it is 3%? I don't think so. Think of it this way. Let's say you judge your chances of being good at 5%. If you were WAY OFF being optimistic, the biggest you could be off is by 5%! That would put you at a 0% chance of being good. If you were way off being pessimistic, your real chances of being good could be as high as 100%. There is much more room on the positive side when you're a big underdog than the negative side.

I don't want to take away from this post. I think the chart is very nice. But don't read it for more than it is: it tells you the EV cost or gain for calling on the river as a function of pot size and your chances of being good. It gives you an idea of how big various mistakes can be. But I don't think you can draw any conclusions whatsoever about whether or not calling down in marginal situations is right.