[tiltaholic]

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Each of these hands look to be worth > 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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ok, well, I was thinking around 6 outs each. I don't think implied odds are good for a pair, but for a straight you are detting 2 bets on the river each time, so a turn call is okay. What river cards are you bluff-raising in hand 1? In hand 2 you could maybe bluff raise an A, but that's about it.

Just to clarify, when you said that we need to pop him with air about 20% of the time, did you mean 3bet the turn or raise the river? Also, how did you arrive at 20%? I would never have considered how often we need to raise with air, and am curious why we would.

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i'm guessing it's a game theory kindof thing.

i'm sortof coming into this blind... but raising with air has to be a part of a balanced strategy for maximizing profit -- since otherwise (in theory) villain will always fold to our raises if we always have the goods, whereas we'd like him to call incorrectly. (and conversly, if they think we always have the goods, they'll fold when we have air)

edit - fantam beat me to it and explained it better.