[DavidL]

Hi Carlo

I like the angle that you're coming from.

However, I think we need to consider that this is a "Science, Math and Philosophy" rather than "Metaphysics and Religion" forum; hence a large number of the contributors want to see "fact" that has a scientific foundation, and/or that which can reasonably deduced or extrapolated from such a foundation. We are dealing largely with Poker pros whose whole game plan is biased around probability and logic. I don't mean to sound sarcastic or conceited, but if we suddenly suggest that there exists a "realm" of the soul or spirit, then we have significantly challenged their world view. If moreover, we suggest that this realm transcends, or is a prerequisite of, the material world, then we are apparently seeking to turn that world view upside down. As such we should be expected to encounter a reception ranging from curiosity to abject skepticism. I expect to be flamed harshly for this post :-)

MidGe asks by what authority you claim to have the knowledge that you do. No offence specifically to MidGe, but other contributors have pointed to the Bible, God's word, as being the absolute authority. Of course this leads to the inevitable "why the Bible and not some other book, or system of belief?" question. Given anything other than a Christian perspective, it is a perfectly valid question. The heart of the problem is the differing innate convictions. Reason can be used to support, and extend, any system of belief.

Atheists insist that the "faith-versus-reason" debate be conducted with reason as the final arbiter, which means that faith will never get a fair hearing. Again I apologize if I appear conceited, but the problem is apparently that we speak and understand two different "languages", but they are fluent in only one, hence we are compelled to conduct the debate in the arena that is common to all.

Jesus says "unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". Anybody who genuinely seeks God is slowly granted a window into the spiritual realm. This is an act of humility and surrender that has little to do with the intellect ("except you become as a little child, you can not enter the kingdom of God"). The Bible says that "knowledge will pass away, but these things will remain – faith, hope and love". Science, knowledge, logic – these are only temporary "conditions".

Believing in a spiritual realm complicates one's belief system, in that it potentially creates more questions than it brings answers to questions that we already have. To somebody whose goal is to work toward an understanding of all things, this must seem like a massively backward step. But it is pride that is the source of a desire to know everything; humility is about placing one's trust and faith, and ultimately one's whole life, in the hands of God. Yielding is extremely difficult, just believing in God doesn't necessarily make it any easier. Yet it is also the ultimate process in true liberation. Paradoxically, the more that we hold on to, the more we have to lose. But "repentance" (not a word I like personally, but one that is widely understood) is only ever one decision away. It is both as easy, and as difficult, as that.

Another problem is that not all Christians agree on issues of doctrine. Different denominations place differing emphasis and interpretation on different Bible verses. Again, to those who are seeking acquisition of knowledge, this lack of consistency is a stumbling block, which to them invalidates both the "Author" of Christianity along with His diversely-thinking believers. I have ceased placing faith in doctrine – which places me at odds with many other Christians – and sought a more existential approach, one that bypasses dogma to encompass emotion, subjectivity, individuality, imagination, intuition, compassion. For it is love, not a knowledge that will pass away, that lies at the heart of God. I think I've quoted Pascal before on this forum, but it remains an all time favorite: "the heart has its own reason, that reason can never grasp".

Many Christians project the unfortunate impression that God prizes moral purity above faith. All that does is create a perception of hypocrisy, for at the end of the day I am no closer to achieving moral perfection than anybody else.

Re the issue of belief, I've heard it said that "to those who believe, no proof is necessary; to those who do not, no proof is possible". A pretty fair conclusion, IMHO.

David