BC,
I dont know why you're such a dick, but since you ignore 90 percent of what i say and focus on nit picking trivial details this will be my last response to you.
"Now I know you have no real experience with martial arts. I train right now in Aikido. I know about pressure points."
No, You dont.
http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jits...urePoints.html
Specifically, Knuckles under ears. Try google and you will learn more.
"Nor are they easy to apply to someone who does more than just sits there."
There are strikes that just require you to hit them, as with a punch.
"If pressure points worked so well, we'd see them in the UFC."
Wrong, from UFC rules,
http://www.ufc.tv/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
One of the most effective defenses against someone trying to lock you up is to drop your elbow on the top of their shoulder, done correctly you can make their arm go numb and basically useless. I know this because I once tackled my friend and he did it to me. It sucked big time
"There's no rule against using pressure points that I'm aware of."
You dont seem to be aware of much, quite the know nothing know it all.
"I'm guessing that it's because they didn't receive enough quality training during their scheduled time. "
This is like saying if they go to the range on their own time it's cause they werent taught to shoot. An unwarranted moronic assertion.
"I looked him up. He had two fights and only won one of them. Big deal. "
I wasn't using his track record as an appeal to authority. A good non sequator by you.
"That's the problem. How do you train to kill someone using techniques without actually killing them? How do you know they'll work? At least with a rifle, you can shoot at targets or even use the MILES lasers. The fact of the matter is that a NHB fighter trains more in techniques that were designed to hurt people and do so against resisting training partners. Do the SEALs train eye gouges against someone who resists 100%? I doubt there'd be many SEALs that could see if they did."
You are stupid. By your logic, no UFC'er could know how to break someones arm without having actually done it in practice. Im guessing there is someone in the seal outfit who has at some point killed someone, I'll go out on that limb. You also ignored that UFC'ers do not train against 100 percent resistance. You have never been able to come up with a coherent answer to the fact that the rules favor a certain style of fighting by limiting effective responses.
You really don't know jack [censored] about MMA or martial arts in general, do you?"
I'm guessing your info comes from something like this
http://www.skinheads.net/forums/arch...hp/t-1336.html
But since you have been unable to find anyone who agrees with you to cite as proof, I'm left to wonder.
"If you want to reduce being hit, grappling is an excellent way to do so, especially if the other guy isn't trained in grappling."
You are a douche, and wrong. Grapling is a great way to avoid traditional punching. Sort of the kill Bill/bruce lee dilemna of how do you hit something with full force that is only 2 inches away. You do it by increasing your recoil speed to exert maximum force, something seals are definately taught. They are also taught to go after the most sensitive areas that don't need a mike tyson blow to produce injury. Same question i posed to the colonel, how do you grapel without at some point exposing your kneck or RAS to 1 strike, which is all thats necessary. All your examples are convuluted like "if im choking you from behind". How did u get there? At some point you were within arms length for me to hit you, and you had to try and grab me while defending yourself. You only have 2 hands.
"That's why Royce was such a force in the early UFC days; because few people were training in ground fighting and thought their stand-up game was good enough to not have to worry about going to the ground."
Their stand up game that had to comply with UFC rules. Every fighting contest that has rules produces certain effective strategies and counter strategies. Did Ali train more for boxing than a seal? yes. Would the rope a dope work on a seal?
" Try punching me while I have you tight in the guard. Or while I'm behind you locking on a rear naked choke. "
1. How did you get to these positions?
2. YOu are completely ignoring me, punches are generally inneffective and useless, true. UFC prohibits most other kinds of strikes (elbow for example) so people are left with punches. You are still dumb and not responding to a thing i say.
"It won't work because it's designed to beat someone who tries to do that."
EXACTLY YOU GO TARD!!!! UFC'ers use techniques designed to combat someone innefctually punching them, WHICH A SEAL IS NOT GOING TO DO.
"If they're employing the techniques you described, yes. How else can you train in lethal techniques? How do you train to to gouge someone's eyes out if they keep batting your hands away? Look up some info on vale tudo. It's the kind of fighting that happens in Brazil. There was a match between Rickson Gracie and a guy named Zulu. Zulu tried gouging Rickson's eyes. Guess who won? Rickson, using techniques that happen all the time in the UFC. "
Is Zulu a seal? Why is this example relevant? You keep reducing things to a unidimensional attack. Yes you can protect your eyes. Its harder to protect your eyes, throat, spine, groin, kidneys, spleen, instep- all at the same time.
"Are they being taught Krav Maga?" Yes. And things like SCARS which purport to be more effective still.
"You have to undesrtand that there is no art out there that can beat any other, garaunteed. It really comes down to the practioner and the quality and quantity of their training."
I agree. My point is that on average seals are taught techniques that are
1. Easier
2. More lethal
So they will beat the average UFC'er.
"This is why there's a lot of crosstraining done in MMA. If any one particular way was the "best" way, just about everyone would do that."
Yes and no. People are trying to find the "best way" that operates under UFC rules.
"Well, most martial arts make it clear that the techniques involved can kill. I'm sure the fighters are very aware of this and in a theoretical death match would have no trouble doing those things if that's what it took."
Blarg slays this argument above. Much of physical activity is practice/muscle memory etc. They dont train to kill. Period. Do they know some stuff that could kill, probably. Is it enough, probably not.
"But if these types of strikes are what the SEALs are training in, then that's mostly theory anyway. How would you know if you're applying a "lethal" technique incorrectly? You wouldn't really. How would the instructor know? Has he killed someone with said technique? Has he done it enough that he knows the ins and outs of it? Doubtful, at best."
This is answered above... But i would like to point out again it is really really stupid. There have been scientiffic analysis done on things like Krav maga, they know it works. It isn't "theory". God this may be the worst argument for anything ever.
"And no, it would not really be a SEAL vs SEAL if the UFC fighter were to use those techniques because he's doing what he's trained to do. If you take those away from the UFC fighter, he's still got other techniques. Take those away from the SEAL, what does he have?"
I understand this. My point was that i said "seals have better technique". You said "UFC'ers know seal technique". Obviously if they know everything a seal knows plus have some other advantage they will win. No one is arguing that. I was making a joke. You weren't getting it. I'm not surprised.
"It's not a giant conspiracy. It's just flawed training perpetuated by an inability to experiment and find out whether these techniques really work. "
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. WHAT? Did you really say this? Becuase every military in the country doesnt enter the octagon they don't know if their techniques work???
"1) KM is not about killing the other guy."
Actually it is. In the 40's when Israelis weren't allowed to carry firearms thats exactly what it was designed to do. True, in America the Local Dojo you attend teaches you not to kill people with it, but many practicioners do so accidentally. Try reading something. You can start here
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=886726
2) "While UFC fighters might not spend their time on these specific techniques, they are spending far more time learning how to avoid being hit"
How long does it take to learn this? What i am saying is that there is diminishing marginal returns to practicing this and other fighting techniques.
" how to fight from advantageous and disadvantageous positions"
yes seals dont learn how to fight when upside down and on their back. They learn to kill. IF they get in that position odds are high it is already over.
" and how to absorb hits while fighting back."
Yes, KM and other scientiffic fighting forms are like JKD if that helps you understand it, they learn to use attacks to their benefit.
"Do SEALs train in the techniques you mentioned while being punched and kicked?"
I'm sure at some point they spar with a partner yea
" Do they train to fight on their back?"
See above. I'm unaware of the physical law that makes it impossible to hit someone in the throat while on your back.
"You can't really apply any of those techniques you mentioned while on your back in the mount and a serious UFC fighter will know how to get you there."
He knows how to get you there when you are unable to unleash total retaliation. It is literally impossible to both get close enough to grab someone (which requires both hands) and fully protect yourself. I hate to beat a dead horse, this only works in UFC because the most lethal responses are ILLEGAL.
"That wasn't the point. The point was that people have been punched in the back of the head, kicked in the kidneys (Royce often heel-kicked the [censored] out of people's kidneys while on his back, yet they didn't give up right away)"
This seems to prove my point that the UFC'ers they were fighting didnt know proper technique... And you are speaking of rarities with anecdotal evidence.
"kneed in the balls and still kept fighting. It's evidence that these "lethal" techniques are not as lethal as you think and that people don't just shut off when they're applied to trained and conditioned people."
What training teaches you to breathe when your windpipe is forcibly closed? What training teaches you to send signals to your arms and legs through something other than your spinal chord? Or teaches your brain to operate without blood? Can training help you overcome the impact of blows, yes. But you are assuming it can do absurd things.
Why don't you try reading this as well
http://kravmaganewyork.net/kravmagaenglish.pdf
And seriously, this is OOT and an internet argument, why you had to be such a d-rocket is beyond me. Plus you know next to nothing, and can't make an educated argument to save your life. Post a reference to defend anything you are saying PLEASE. Untill then i will continue to believe people like Aviram over college student from local dojo in Wisconsin.