[Buzz]

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I get 6789s UTG (no one raises anyway...) and fold, asking my amigo if he would have played that hand. He says yes, and he has seen some of the better players raise it. He goes on to say he is suprised to see that I haven't figured something out yet, but wont tell me what.

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Crimson - Get another amigo. This one is playing one-up mind games with you.

There's nothing to figure out. The hand is garbage in a full limit game and you're out of position to boot.

I'll maybe post some data on it later. Making 6789 suited adds complications to calculations. I'd be sort of ready with 6789n, but suitedness adds another dimension. Still doesn't make it playable (even if double suited), just harder to figure and explain.

There are some different considerations in a pot limit game (I don't know). But in a full $4/$8 limit game, 6789s from UTG belongs in the muck before the flop.

It is true that if your opponents credit you with having any sense, the hand is completely disguised - but so is 27TKs, a hand that also probably belongs in the trash, but actually is a better starting hand than 6789s.

Note that the four cards in 6789s are all "working together." Unless you say that about almost any hand, I don't think you can say that about 27TKs. And you certainly cannot way it about 23QKd, which is a very playable starting hand. "Working together" is better than not working together, but by itself is not worth much.

Four middle cards in starting hands stink in this game. Period.

Just my (very firm based on simulations and experience) opinion.

Sometimes I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong here.

Buzz