[BasketballNYC]

There is one area where the initial poster is correct. Not with flush draws but with straight and overcard draws. SSHE makes the point that overcards should often not be treated as full outs, but not because they are in other peoples hands or been folded but because you may hit and still be behind to two pair or a set (not a problem with the nut flush draw).

However, if I have AQ and raise preflop and between limpers and cold callers there are 6-7 of us to the flop which comes all rags, do I have a full six outs? (assuming I need them) I doubt it. There may not be an Ace left in the deck to be dealt. I understand the theory of unseen cards, but logic would dictate that if that many people are seeing the flop, some of my aces are dead. This would not make me say that I have no outs, but my A outs should certainly be discounted. This also applies to Broadway draws. If I need an A or 9 to make my hand and we have as many players as I stated before, I cannot assume that all 4 of my aces are live again. I would value this draw at perhaps 6 outs instead of 8.