Re: More Israel
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But as far as the Middle East is concerned and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, yes, absolutely, the United States has followed, assisted and supported Israel in everything and every time.
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This right here is the crux of our debate. You said the above, Cyrus, and I showed how it was incorrect. Of course Israel acted in its own interest in many ways in these two examples I gave, but they still illustrate how your statement is incorrect. Let me again say that Israel acted in its best interest in the Yom Kippur War. But they were still pressurized heavily by the US gov't (see Kissinger's "Crisis") The Suez War further proves you wrong. I admitted when I was wrong about saying that Arab govt's openly called for the destruction of the US. Can you at least say you are wrong here?
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This is the point : Israel seems to oblige the U.S. but it does so ONLY when this is convenient for Israel! If you think that this amounts to succumbing to pressure, be my guest.
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Those bastards! I can't believe Israel would act in its own interests. Also, the Suez War was an instance where it wasn't in Israels best interest to withdraw but did so from US pressure.
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Please understand this : Israel's numero uno concern, militarily and politically, has been Egypt, not Jordan, not Libya, not Iraq, not Lebanon, not Saudi Arabia. Alright?
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I never said it wasn't. I do not deny what Israeli leaders said. You continue to miss my point. Lets just say that the USc was to pressure some other country to do something. Lets not include what the even was, who the other country was, or the motives of that country. Any logical person would agree that the US pressured that country. You said the US never did this to Israel. You said the US always followed Israel no matter what. I showed they didnt. If you could simply acknowledge this, then we could maybe see eye to eye on some other aspects.
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Debate it as much as you like and with whomever you like : I gave you the testimony of the survivors of the attack against the ship! Are you going to claim you know what happened better than the American shipmen who were there ?
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After Israeli airplanes fired on the USS LIberty, two torpedo boats approached. The Liberty then fired on the boats, which they had every right to do. Then torpedo boats then fired on the ship. I do not simply dismiss the testimony of the survivors, but I would not expect them to say anything but that it was deliberate since they lost many friends. However, an objective look at the tragedy along with 13 total commissions on the incident shows that it was an accident. Given that it was during the six day war, is it not possible that this was the case? Also what logical and supported reason is there for Israel to do this?
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A country that is based on principles such as Israel's, and a country with pretensions to "western values" and "democratic principles" at that, is an anachronism, a throw-back to the nationalism of the 19th century.
The world has moved. The Jews have been left behind. Moreover, through the actions of Israel in the last fifty years, the moral high ground enjoyed by the Jewish tribe has been lost. Israel wins the battle for hills, rivers and valleys and loses the battle for its soul.
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Israel was established as a Jewish state because of the need for a homeland and the survival of the jewish people. You seem to think that this shouldnt have happened. I want you to look up some of the more famous Israeli Supreme Court decisions. I think you might change your opinion that Israel does not act as a western country. Apparently, the Jews are not part of the civilized world, everyone. Cyrus just opened all our eyes. They are still barbarians living in the 18th century and we should thorw our support behing the muslims, who are living in the future!
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