[Buzz]

Hi Bodie -

From your reply to Cooker, I realize you know this already, but after missing out on a nice scooper with quad treys, I think there are some ideas worth reinforcing.

Cooker wrote,
[ QUOTE ]
"you fold trash hands because they hit <font color="white">_</font>fewer flops than better hands not because they <font color="white">_</font>never hit flops."

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s pretty close and nicely succinct.

But I’d phrase it slightly differently. You fold trash hands because they <font color="white">_</font>win less and <font color="white">_</font>scoop less than better hands, not because they <font color="white">_</font>never win or scoop.

Your post was about 2388n, not 6788d or TJQQd, but allow me to use those two hands to illustrate how two different hands can hit the flop just as often as each other, and even end up with every category of high hand the same - but one of the two hands is clearly a better starting hand than the other.

I consider 6788d to be a “trash” hand while I consider TJQQd to be a “playable” hand. However, 6788d hits the flop just as often as TJQQd. The difference, in a nine handed game, is that TJQQd ends up <font color="white">_</font>winning more than 6788d. Below is the simulation data:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="red">6788d.....519.....12.....355.....866</font>
<font color="blue">TJQQd.....653.....0.....875.....1528</font>
Both are against eight random hands with random boards, dealt 10,000 times.

If you think of a royal flush as an ace-high straight flush (which it is) then they both figure to make the same number of straight flushes. Indeed, both hands figure to make every category of high hand (straights, flushes, full houses, quads, trips etc.) the same number of times.

In addition, 6788d sometimes wins for low, whereas TJQQd can never win for low.

However, you don’t have to be a math wizard to see from the simulation numbers that TJQQd is clearly a better starting hand than 6788d.

As a comparison, here are the numbers for 2388n, the actual hand you held:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="red">2388n.....219.....528.....275.....1022 </font>

In the typical low limit Omaha-8 games in which you play, you figure to do better by folding 2388n from every position (except the unraised big blind).

The long and the short of it is there are plenty of other starting hands that you should be playing that are better than 2388n. I have over 1500 hand types listed in my nine-handed data bank that I think are better starting hands than 2388n - and all possible hand types are not listed in my main data bank. (There surely are many additional hands better than 2388n that I don’t have listed). You don’t need sub-par hands to get lots of action.

I know you enjoy playing for jackpots. I can’t remember if you need quad tens or better beaten to qualify for the jackpot where you play, or if any quads beaten qualifies. I know that quad treys with three on the board and one in your hand does not qualify. (You need two in your hand and two in the board for a hand with quads to qualify as a possible jackpot hand - and then you need someone to have a better hand).

In a nine player game, if nobody folds, I think 2388n might make quad eights and be beaten by a better hand approximately one time in 140,000 or 150,000 - something like that. But the casino is not going to pay $140,000 or $150,000 when quad eights are beaten. They’re only going to give the table a fraction of that (if, indeed, quad eights beaten even qualifies for the big bad-beat jackpot - maybe it’s quad tens or better beaten). So if you’re thinking that you might win the jackpot with 2388n, the jackpot aspect doesn’t add enough value to the hand to make it playable.

And flopping quads with any hand is obviously a freak. Even if you’re playing KKQQd (a hand you should be playing), you’ll only flop quads 92 times out of 17296 - one time in 188.

I believe that anybody who told you any hand with two low cards is playable gave you poor advice. But although poor (IMHO), it might not have been malevolent. The person advising you might actually think that you should see the flop with any two low cards.

I don’t.

Maybe the person meant any two wheel cards.

But I don’t even think you should see the flop with any two wheel cards, (let alone any two low cards).

At any rate, you clearly did right in folding the 2388n to a double bet on the first betting round. IMHO, it’s not close. 2388n is not even worth playing for a single bet - not even with the enormous implied pot odds you get for seeing the flop if almost everybody else limps and if, in addition, there are a couple of calling stations at the table.

But I do know how frustrated I feel when I fold what would have been a winner before the flop - especially when three opponents go to the river after I’ve folded.

It’s small consolation to know you played correctly.

My condolences. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Just my opinion.

Buzz