[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You still didn't give me any general principles that I'm ignoring.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that first example, both men were acting on the principle "helping others is good", despite the fact that their specific actions were different. You say "different actions = subjective" while I say "acting on same principle /= subjective".

The shoes example... I said "you'll have to concede that there are situations in which they act different based on *different* values and each result is morally equivalent." However, Albert is trying to insult Fred and Bob is not. These are not morally equivalent actions, so your example is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main difference here is how you are definining "subjective". I think it's mostly used the way you are using it in the Objectivist camp.

I have said that motives & intentions are a huge factor in determining whether something is "right" or "wrong". The difference, then, is that I say that makes morality subjective, whereas you keep refuting my examples by saying they aren't *identical* circumstances because their motives and intentions differ.

So, we are back to square one. I said if the people have to be identical, then I would agree, but that the word "subjective" loses meaning in this context.

So, I'll summarize:

I think that someone's background, mental state, emotions, knowledge, and beliefs are core to what makes them, them. It's these things that molds their core values and moral principles. You already agreed that a different in knowledge between people creates a different situation (and thus, the morality of their actions is not "subjective"). I would guess, then, that you would say a difference in any of the things I listed would create a different situation.

I will conclude that the word "subjective", according to your definition, is mostly meaningless in this context. I will concede that morality is not "subjective" according to your definition (or Rand's definition, by the way).

But, for the common usage of the term "subjective" (even in the fields of ethics and philosophy), morality is partly "subjective" because it is partly determined by the persons involved (specifically, their background, mental state, emotions, knowledge, and beliefs).