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Old 08-26-2005, 11:14 AM
Derek in NYC Derek in NYC is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 130
Default Re: Side question

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As in Meeps specific hand that this came from...there's one loose/generally bad limper...the Blinds are tight.

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Meep's original problem provided no reads on either the limper or the blinds. If the limper was bad/tight and the blinds were tight, I would agree with you that the button's standards can relax. However, as a default position, I think both assumptions are erroneous (esp. the part about the blinds being tight).

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1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?

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Assuming a normal limper and blind, I would not raise with less than ATo.

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2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?

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I would not raise with less than A9s or A8s, and if I thought there was a good chance the blinds would call anyhow, I would probably overlimp.

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3) Pocket pairs...which?/

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I would raise 99 or higher, limp with 77-88 (assuming normal blinds), and fold 66 or below.

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4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?

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I would fold most non-broadway suited connectors, except for 9Ts, which I would limp with.

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5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's

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I would fold king-rag, regardless of whether suited or not, including K9s.

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6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

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I would fold all of these hands.

In looking at the differences between the way you would proceed and I would proceed, you seem to be assuming that a raise is successful at isolating the limper. This just isn't true in most of the games I play, particularly live games. In the 10/20 games I play live, most BB will play with any two cards, and most SBs will play with any two suited cards. (And thats not much of an exaggeration). I havent played full ring online in a very long while, but I'd be surprised if low limit blinds would fold out very often to a button raise.

Also, I agree with Chesspain about 4th street scare cards. Calling an overcard to the board is the worst of the 3 options. Raising the turn might work to fold out hands like KK, QQ, AJ, etc. but frankly I dont think this works often enough against most opponents to be worth trying. On a 4th street A, K, Q overcard, I'm very inclined to fold.

Finally, despite all of my comments about giving the BB credit for a big hand based on the three-bet, after the initial limper folds, I'd give very serious consideration to capping preflop. I know that it seems inconsistent with everything I've just posted about how the BB is likely to have a real hand, but in my opinion, with hands like 99-JJ, it is best to define your hand as early as possible so you can make a decision about whether to get away from the hand before 4th street. Taking this approach gets away from one of the often-posted methods here on 2p2 that I just hate, namely the raise 4th street but fold to a 3-bet line.
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