[mosdef]

i know. what i am saying is that you CAN'T claim that the people left in the pot are both making money at the expense of the OTHER players, since they are not involved in the other hand. the point i was trying to make with my example was that there is situation where you can clearly see that the money isn't somehow coming from the other players. the player with the made hand can bet to suck some value away from the player on the draw, but if he bets and the drawer calls, they aren't collecting EV from the other players.