[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
- You mention "income/assets" as if they are the same thing, when clearly they are not. That alone is fatal to this particular point of your argument. You should understand the difference between income and assets when you discuss income taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm discussing wealth distribution in the U.S. Aren't some assets taxed?



[ QUOTE ]
- Since I am jumping in here, let's make sure the numbers are right. You can google these from 2001:

Top 5% pay 53.25%
The top 10% pay 64.89%
The top 25% pay 82.9%
The top 50% pay 96.03%
The bottom 50% pay 3.97%

of all income taxes.

Because you brought it up, what amount of "income" (not assets) do these groups "control?"

The top 1% earns 17.53%
The top 5% earns 31.99%
The top 10% earns 43.11% T
The top 25% earns 65.23%
The top 50% earns 86.19%

of all the income.

So, the top 5% of income earners make only 32% of all income, yet pay 53% of all taxes. That is not a good deal, even before you recognize that they don't get back anywhere near 53% of all services their taxes are used to fund.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this isn't just about their yearly income, it's also about their ownership of the majority of assets within the U.S., it's like a friggin feudal system.




[ QUOTE ]
- I can tell you that I am in the top 5% as are many of my friends and colleagues. Contrary to what you have been lead to believe, we don't have all sorts of ways that we can avoid taxes. In fact, with the Alternative Minimum Tax not having been indexed to inflation, we are rapidly losing ways of minimizing our tax burden that others in lower tax brackets can use. Sure, there is a small, small group of the very rich who can employ tax avoidance plans, but most of those in the top 5% can't.[ QUOTE ]


Well, I apologize if my belief is incorrect. But, the top 5% ARE a small, small group, and they still control an inordinate amount of wealth compared with the other 90% of the population.





[/ QUOTE ]- Where you and I disagree the most is with the fact that you seem to fail to recognize that there is a reason why those in the top 5% are there. Most are there because they worked their asses off to get there, and continue to do so to stay there. You want the money I make ... you work the hours I studied and worked for the past 20 years. It wasn't luck that I and most of the other 5 percenters got where they got ... it was from good old hard work and financial discipline.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't dispute that "some" of those in the top 5% achieved their wealth through hard work, intelligence, study, etc.

But, how many are just wealthy because that wealth has remained within their families for generations and been passed down?

How many are wealthy because they subsist off the labors of others? A lot of them couldn't be wealthy if they weren't born into it. Again, I have had some bad experiences with wealthy family-run businesses, and it's left a bad taste in my mouth.

And I don't dispute that there are plenty of lazy people at the bottom who don't want to work at all, but there are also plenty who are poor who would prefer more opportunities available to them.

But so many jobs pay very low wages, benefits are being cut, there isn't even a lunch hour anymore, it's a working 30 minute lunch of a lot of people.

The upper echelon is driving our nation to madness and causing all sorts of social ills because of the demands in the workforce. Again, stress levels are higher, you don't have community gatherings or friendly neighbors like you used to (I'm in the NorthEast U.S., and we're just constantly on the go, I would prefer a simpler, slower lifestyle)

People are commuting 1.5-3 hours to work one-way, and then working 8-12 hours a day, coming home, crashing and doing it all over again. And because of the economy, anyone can lose their job at anytime, so it's difficult for workers to stand up for their rights and be treated fairly, because they can be so easily replaced.

I'm not saying that ALL of the upper echelon treat their employees this way, but it's become pretty standard in my experience.


[ QUOTE ]
- Finally, you mentioned in one of your posts about what would happen if all the money was pulled together and equally distributed. Putting the zero-sum nonsense aside, let me make two points:

1. Those who make the most money tend to be the one's who employ others. How many families rely on you every two weeks to make payroll? Over the years dozens of families have relied on my businesses to put food on the table. Take away my wealth (and I am not asserting that I am in any way a wealthy person), or even out my income and watch what would happen to unemployment. You would call it "unintended consequences" when to most in the top 5% it would be the obvious ramifications of such a stupid redistribution.

2. All the money would be right back into the hands of those that had it before within a matter of years. There is a reason that those who have it, have it. And that wouldn't change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not suggesting we re-distribute the wealth evenly, I was just pointing out the figures for that re-distribution.

And yes, those who make the most money tend to be employers, who are becoming wealthy because of their employees hard work.

But the greed at the top never seems to end. They're always looking for a way to squeeze another dime out of a nickel, so to speak.

It's all "how can we get rid of Joe, who's been with the company for 15 years, and hire Mikey who's fresh out of college at one-third the pay and reduced benefits?"

I guess I'm saying that our government, and big business, has been socially irresponsible, to benefit a minority of the population that really isn't in any need of such benefits.

By trying to squeeze so much productivity out of the workforce, and by putting more requirements on employees and providing them with less benefits, we now have a society filled with people who are stressed, overweight and depressed.

Productivity levels will decrease because the employees will be unhappy or bored with their jobs. The majority of people I interact with (since you seem to interact with the top 5% of the population) are not rich, and just go to their jobs to "collect a paycheck" and that's it. There's no company loyalty anymore, and that saddens me.