Thread: AK flop play
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Old 07-15-2005, 04:28 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 240
Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the opposing view as to checking behind on the flop:

There is very little question that against multiple tricky opponents, or sometimes even one tricky opponent, checking behind on a J54 flop with an A7 draw is the right play. However, this is not a similar situation.

First and foremost, you are heads up on an all low board. There are times you should check behind here, but not against most players and not with almost anything you've raised PF. Most of the time when you do, you are either setting yourself up to get pushed off the pot on the turn, or, equally likely, giving your opponent up to 6 outs you don't want him to have *and* giving him cause to suspect 22 is good. With deep stacks, it is very often the proper play here to call a hand like 22 PF and fold it on any non-2 flop, including this one, but once you check the flop all bets are off.

Second, the most powerful way you have to get the guy off this flop is not to check the flop, raise the turn (especially if he hits something he likes.) It's to bet/3 bet a raise now; there are only a few hands most people will do that with, and if your opponent is any good at all 88 will go out the window either now or on the turn. I said 'slightly more FE' in my original post because almost nobody at Party is any good, but hey, you're on Stars now so it varies.

Third, six of your outs (if you have all 15) will not result in you getting paid now; if you check behind and an ace hits the hand is over. If you bet, get called, a high card hits the turn and you check through, you are usually winning a nice pot on the river (ie, your implied odds on your flop bet are usually something like 2:1-3:1 even if you know you are getting called; they are higher if a heart hits). If you check through here, nobody that can't beat TPTK will pay you off on any following street you hit. As a corollary, if your opponent has a set or A7 and an ace hits the turn, you are calling him down on two streets and he is the one who controlls how many chips go in.

Fourth, for Shania's sake, if I check behind this hand I am sometimes checking behind AA, too, and I won't be doing that any time soon (too many cards that kill my action).

Finally, free turn cards > free flop cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay first of all our opponent isn't good here. I'm pretty sure this is a relatively low buyin sit and go on Pokerstars. If I bet the flop, get check raised, I expect to be called when I move allin. In a higher buyin with more sophiticated opponents, it's much more likely they will checkraise this flop with random garbage, as it's not a great raisers flop.

btw if our opponent has a set, all our chips are getting in on the flop as a signifigant underdog, so I don't see why you seem to phrase it as though it would be bad to check against a set because suddenly they have control of the pot on the turn.

btw I just can't see how you can reguarly play sit and gos online and honestly believe that NO ONE will pay you off if an ace/king comes unless they can beat your hand. Are we playing the same games as each other? I'd regularly get paid off by worse hands even at the $215s. It's not like it happens all the time, but to say no one will pay you off is a gross overstatement.

Your opponents play terribly for a large part because they call with hands that are obviously beaten. I mean I'm not expecting huge action if an ace comes on the turn, but I sure wouldnt be shocked to get action from 87 or 99.
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