[MisterKing]

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I'm anti datamining. poker edge is available to everyone, yes, but the information shouldn't be available to poker edge, and them selling it is taking the problem and making it worse. IMHO.

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You damned nit.

Can we please reduce this question to its essence?
Ultimately, this entire matter is about people objecting to the idea that an edge, e.g. extra information that helps its holder play more effectively, can be purchased. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable line of distinction that can be drawn to separate an information product like PE from an information product like "Hold'Em For Advanced Players by David Sklansky." Do you see why? (nyuk nyuk nyuk).

Note that I am restricting my comments to the world of information products, be they books, software, or any other device -- either physical or virtual. This debate is about knowledge, and NOTHING MORE. Sklansky's books, PT, CardPlayer Magazine, all of those things are just knowledge tools. They are bits of information that human players consume, process, and then make use of. Player A will read HEPFAP and apply it poorly... he may also have PE and apply its data poorly. Player B may do one well and not the other, or vice versa. The INFORMATION is there for both players (and conversely not there for those that do not purchase it), but the manner in which it is used (or not used) differs immensely.

In and of themselves, PE and HEPFAP have no impact on poker games. Bringing HEPFAP to the table won't help. Loading PE to a digital table won't either. Applying the lessons learned from either, however, will make a difference. Note that this is the part that makes PE so different from IBM's Deep Blue Chess Computer or actual poker cheating software (bots, collusion, etc.). You can bring Deep Blue to a chess match, fire it up, and beat Gary Kasparov without using your brain. You cannot, however, bring PE to a 15/30 game on Party and beat that game (or any one player in it) without using your own skills, reasoning, and so on.


There has been some good discussion lately about a MTT group called "The Team" (I think that's the name). Lee Jones had a great article responding to "The Team" issue, in which he explained that online poker is just not a 1:1 equivalent of B&M poker. It is the same base game, but some differences necessarily exist. Data mining is one of them. Massive amounts of useful data are a natural and inexorable consequence of the digitization of poker. It is only natural that discerning players will want to use this data effectively, and casual players will not. In the B&M world, discerning players observe opponents at the table, read books while away from the table, and are always maximizing their information advantage. Casual players are staring at the Borgata cocktail waitress' titties and talking about the Yankees center field and pitching problems. Both types of players are free to do whatever, but they choose one path or another according to their individual priorities. Online players do the same, but the specific ways in which they do so differs somewhat.

So anyhow, DMBFan is a massive nit. I hope he's never purchased a poker book, because like Doyle Brunson, PE has taken useful poker information and put it up for sale. And by his reasoning, that's not fair.