[senjitsu]

Here's the problem with your assumption. When you say that 78s can "stand up to a raise", what you are really saying is that, having limped, you can now call a raise with it in position (and you're correct).

But that doesn't mean its profitable to call a raise in position with it, it simply means that its less unprofitable.

So lets say you limp with 78s... there are three possible scenarios

1. The blinds check and or call and you see a flop for the price of the big blind. This situation has a positive EV (or it can, depending on the game), because you will win enough pots to make up for the one big blind you're spending.

2. One of the blinds raises, and you fold to the raise. Now, you have paid the price of the big blind to see the flop, but you have no chance to win the pot... this scenario has a negative EV of -1 big blind.

3. You limp, one of the blinds raises (for the sake of argument, say he raises to 3XBB), and you call the raise. In general, you are going to win the pot almost as frequently here as you would have otherwise... and now the pots you're going to win are bigger, on average, than they would be otherwise.

The problem is that they dont grow porportionally to your investment. So you won't make enough money when you win a big pot, on average, to recoup the loss from the (far more frequent occassions) when you have to throw your hand away to a bet on the flop.

But frequently, you will still make enough money on these hands so that your -ev is less that it would have been had you limped and then folded. Scenario 3 is still losing you money in the long run. That is to say, except in exceptional circumstances, if you somehow had the foreknowledge that a player in later position was going to raise (a tell, or a crystal ball) you would fold 78s. AJo and 78s are both unprofitable when you limp with them and they are raised. The difference is that with 78s, the optimal strategy to diminish that unprofitability is to call the raise, while with AJo, the optimal strategy is to fold.


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1. Assumption - Ac Jd can't stand a raise, but 7s8s can stand a raise preflop.

2. Example - a. It's folded to me in a no limit game and I am on the button with As Jc. I decide to raise.

b. Same situation but I am on the button with 7s6s. This time I call.

3. Thoughts - If I just call with Ace Jack and it's raised, I will have to fold based on the assumption above. The 7s6s can stand a raise in position, again based on the assumption.

Is there any merit to raising more with a hand that can't stand a raise but calling more with a drawing type suited connector hand that can stand a raise?

Another problem with the small suited connectors is that normally if you miss the flop, you are not going to win in a showdown with hard card strength. If the AJ hand gets checked down your ace high may win the pot for you. The seven six hand will most likely need some help.

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