[MichaelD]

Dan,

Thanks for your compliment. It is appreciated.

In regards to your observations "how well do you play, how well do they play, and what do they think of you?" To paraphrase Mason's essays - I agree. These factors are all extremely important when trying to determine the specifics of a given situation.

Your observations of comparing opponents as being weak or skilled is an astute one and can absolutely have an impact in the play of hands such as this one.

Your reference about me being able to lay a hand down, and you give the J8 example is a valid one. For whatever it is worth, I am capable of making these laydowns; although whether or not I make the play is dependent on my opponents. Interestingly enough, you also point out, when you do it, it varies greatly depending on the player.

There are a couple of players I play against regularly whom I almost always make the call as long as the pot is of reasonable size, sometimes with second pair. The obvious reasons are they always make a play at the pot no matter what they have and not matter what the size of the pot. Against other players, who have not yet demonstrated an ability to adjust their play, I can easily make the laydown as I know I am beat.

This brings us back to your initial questions I posted at the beginning of my reply. They are so very important if one is going to beat a mid-limit game for any amount over an extended period of time. I will define extended period of time to at least 5000 hours.

I listen to all of the data from the sims, and at one point, I had all of the Sklansky hands memorized by order and also broken down by group. I think these are great as a foundation upon which to buil. But from my experience, there are other variables that far outweigh a percentage of .05% that someone will state is the edge one hand has over another and then brush it off and say "You are Wrong", or "Weak", or "Giving up too Much". While this may be true in an idealistic statistacal only based world, I have found that it is not necessarily true at the poker table.

I could really care less about the minute percentage 95 suited has over 34 off, but the process to determine the different factors involved in the different situations that may present themselves at the table are what interest me.

You brought up some great questions in your post, the ones I re-listed at the top of this post. A few others have mentioned some simulation figures. I find this infomration to be useful and valuable to help all of us improve our play. In fact, allow me to return the compliment and state that in all of your posts, the quesions you ask, and the points you make are all valid and extremely relative to the specific situation you are describing or asking about. While these finer points obviously elude many who read them, they are still KEY if one is to beat the game long term for any amount of money worht mentioning.

What I do not find at all helpful is when someone on this forum says something like "95 suited is the best hand" and gives no reason for their statement. Just because someone writes something with conviction does not make it true. While in fact the statement may be true, the thought process used and the questions asked to arrive at the conclusion stated are jsut as important as the conclusion itself. in fact, over the long term of one's poker career, I would argue that the thought processes used and the questions asked, are more important than any almost any other factors. Obvisouy other facors are important, but I do not feel it necessary to list them as I belive most here are aware of them.

How one arrives at the decisions he makes at the table will determine whether or not he is able to stay in the game without going broke - a feat which VERY FEW players are capable of doing year after year after year. And no, 4-5 years of playing 1000-1500 hours a year is not a long time. From my personal experience, it is the bare minimum amount of time to determine if you are a truly a winning player - one who is capable of managing the swings in both poker and life - that go with this profession - either part time or full time. But that is the subject of another post.

Keep up the good work Dan and thanks for your reply.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.