[ThisHo]

Once again -- thanks for the thoughtful exchange.

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As I understand it, though (and correct me if I'm wrong), all of mankind is still held accountable for Original Sin, or Applegate (the Eden kind, not Christina--I'd like to be held...nevermind. ). To atone for this sin, a person must accept Jesus as the Christ, be baptized, live a good life in accordance with the tenets of the Church, etc.

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Semantics here but... a person can not atone for their own sins. Jesus Christ offers forgiveness/mercy/grace through his death on the cross. It his HIS deed alone that allows us to be forgiven of the sins. We can't make up for it.
To answer your question though - A person simply needs to accept Jesus as Lord to be forgiven. Baptism is NOT a requisite for entrance to heaven. It is a step that Christians are encouraged to take as it is an outward sign of your commitment to Christ, but it is not required. Living a life that follows the rules set out by Jesus/God in the Bible is not a requisite. As has been said previously by other posters - the basis of Christianity is really a relationship with Jesus/God where you are striving to follow His will for your life and He is providing guidance and blessings and discipline along the way. The relationship is often compared to a father and child. Its not about what you do - its about what you believe. If you believe that Jesus is your saviour, the Christ, and you are in relationship with Him then you are probably going to work on not doing the things that He has said are harmful to us and to our relationship with Him. Christianity does not require living in accordance with the Tenets of "The Church".

But how can you say that you are a follower of Jesus if you don't follow His rules? Well.... That's the thing, if you are a real/true follower of Jesus you're going to TRY to follow the plan that He lays out for your life. But don't get hung up on the rules. The New Testament Bible is actually very freeing. Paul's letters talk a LOT about Freedom in Christ. Are there things that are considered sinful, yes. Is everything that you think is considered sinful actually considered sinful, NO (see example in my last post about HAVING to go to church on Sunday -- not a requirement).

The point the Bible makes about sin is that we all have sinned. It doesn't distinguish that one sin is worse than any other and it doesn't state that commiting one sin (say cursing or lying) is less bad than committing 10,000 sins (say genocide). It says that sin is sin and that the wages of sin is death and that anyone who comes to Christ and confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as savior will be forgiven of whatever sin(s) have been committed. You are not then required to live a sinless life the rest of the way. You'll be forgiven even if you commit the same sin again and again -- provided you truely truely truely are repentant of the sin and that you truely have accepted Jesus into your heart and accepted his forgiveness and mercy. That part of it is strictly between you and God!

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Not a trap at all, and I gave up trying to convert the masses a long time ago.


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VERY glad to hear this (that its not a trap).
Your point that right/wrong are somehow hard wired into us is valid. But here's my question : WHY are we hard-wired like that? Did our creator hard wire us that way? How did we become hard wired with a (very broad and general) sense of right and wrong?

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Incidentally, and just for clarification's sake, the God of the Bible does command his followers to kill others, on a fairly regular basis. But only in the Old Testament; in the New Testament, we have the kinder, gentler Christian God who preaches love and compassion. This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history, but this is true of any belief system, including atheism.

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hmmm.... my Old Testament is (embarrased to say) a bit rusty. There are LOTS of wars in the Old Testamant and God clearly commanded His chosen people (the Jews) to take the promised land that as their own.

You are correct that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE shift between the old and new testaments. Jesus came as the Messiah, the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies and the law of the old testament. Its not a "kinder gentler God", its the same God but reaching out to all of mankind through His only Son. The loving caring God is there in the old testament as well.

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My own viewpoint, which is sadly not shared by the vast majority of the world's religions, is that there is no right or wrong faith--only a right or wrong way to live one's life. I do try to plant the odd seed of thought within a theist's mind, yes...but only so that they can think it over and come to their own conclusions on the subject.

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It is true that every religion believes that they are the ONE TRUE religion. I can't disagree with that at all. Its a part of religion and as I said before it all too often has led to conflicts in human history with tragic consequences.
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This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history

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YUP! We humans is jacked up man! Even those of us that follow Christ are jacked up and we do dumb dumb dumb things sometimes. This unfortunately muddles/skews the view of the Gospel... God Loves You! He wants to have relationship with you. He has a plan for your life. He loves you so much that He sent His Son to die for your sins.

I'll tell you one thing though... I'll give a different Wendy's a try one of these days! You've convinced me of that! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Enjoy your day!
ThisHo