[uuDevil]

Hi Randy,

Glad to see you're still around. I admire your willingness to follow through on a discussion. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Yes, "Fitting the flop" is indeed one of the subheads on the first page of the flop chapter. But within a page or so, we go on to say that in addition to evaluating how your hole cards have gone up or down in value in relation to the flop, "you also have to factor in the betting, your position at the table, the size of the pot, and the odds your hand will improve by catching a helping card on the turn."

We go on to amplify this with plenty of specific examples, plus we introduce concepts such as pot equity, tainted odds and redraws. Given that this is a beginner book, I'd say that's a fair amount of sophistication - hardly a "fit or fold" mentality.


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I went back and had a closer look. The advice that follows seems fine to me. I suppose the hair on the back of my neck will stand up for the rest of my life whenever I see the word "fit" used in the same sentence with either "flop" or "fold." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Putting such a sentence into a post in the strategy forums here would be roughly the equivalent of dousing myself in gasoline before walking into a room full of pyromaniacs.

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In the chapter on tournaments, one subsection mentions the importance of knocking people out. Though I'm no tourney expert, this struck me as an odd point to emphasize.

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We talk about it in the context of the late stages of the tournament. Here's some of what we say:

"Once you survive the opening stages of a tournament, the value of knocking out other players rises. Imagine you started out in a 25-dollar buy-in tournament with 100 players, and it's now down to just 30. Only the top 10 will finish in the money, so each player you can bust out puts you a step closer. It's even more important at the final table: if tenth place pays 40 dollars and ninth place pays 80 dollars, knocking out even a single player at least doubles your earnings!"

This compares pretty closely with what Bob Ciaffone says in the tournament chapter of "Pot-Limit & No-Limit Poker":

"Those of you who compete regularly at tournament poker are aware of how important it is to knock opponents out of the event when you have reached the final table ... This applies to any event that pays more than one place."

To me, the main problem with our tournament chapter is that it's just one chapter, and so of necessity is quite brief. There's a lot we don't cover - we're mainly introducing the idea of tournaments, rather than giving the reader enough advice to truly have a shot at winning.


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OK. MM also discusses this idea in GTAOT. He goes so far as to say you can sometimes overplay your hands against short stacks. In the case of calling to try to knock someone out (which you didn't explicitly mention in your book) he says you can "call liberally" if you have good chip position and it won't cost much to call.

On the other hand, David Sklansky says in TPFAP that you should almost never make sub-optimal plays simply because they might help eliminate a short stack. I have also seen Mike Caro and posters on these boards discount this idea.

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In the resources section it mentions Roy Cooke's "Real Poker: The Cooke Collection" but this book is hard to find. Perhaps they intended to recommend "Real Poker II: The Play of Hands."

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No, the recommendation was deliberate as it stands. Amazon says you can order "The Cooke Collection" and get it shipped within two days, so there shouldn't be any problem with availability. And it's a much better value than "The Play of Hands," since it includes a wider range of material.


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I may be missing it but the only purchase option I see is for a used copy at well over $100. I also cannot find it on Ebay or Half.com or the Mike Caro University site.

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I doubt that any player could become a winner solely on the basis of the information in this book


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Well, I have to say I don't doubt this at all. The beginner will need to study the book, not flip through it casually, but he will get a very solid grounding of playing winning poker - more than enough to win at micro and low-limits.


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Perhaps. I probably see the game as being somewhat tougher to win at than you do.

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What this book won't do for the beginner is move him into advanced territory. In my opinion, an intelligent novice who studies hard and plays a ton of hours should be able to outgrow this book within the span of just a few months. That's why we list additional books and resources in Appendix C.

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"We are all apprentices of a craft where no one ever becomes a master." --E. Hemingway

I suppose EH was talking about writing, not poker. But the subset of players who are willing to become apprentices will move on to other resources pretty quickly, so it won't be easy to say how much of their progress is due to having read a particular book. However, I do think you are giving your readers who are raw beginners about as good a start as they can reasonably expect.