[Hashiell_Dammett]

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I guess Buzz you fall into the school of Omaha 8 players that don't raise pre flop. That's fine. I personally don't see O8 as a river game, I see it almost purely as a starting hand game and to a lesser extent a flop game.
Ok so Nick anounces to the good players that their non nut lows are no good. Ok fine. First off, how many good players are at this table? If there's a hand full they're probably A) not in the hand, or B) if they're in the hand they wouldn't pay off when all they had is a non nut low anyway. So you're getting 1 extra small bet from these good players when they wouldn't have paid you off in the first place. Now if there are more than a handful I would say you need to find yourself a better table.
The second disadavantage is that Nick loses more when he does lose. So by that logic should we only ever raise with the nuts on the river? Of course not that is pure nonsense, ok he raises before the flop and it comes all high cards in hearts, ok so what? Fold, next hand please.
The key to any poker is to get your money in, when you have the best of it, that's what his raise would accomplish, if he's playing in a game where his raise allows your opponent to put him on an exact hand, then A, he's not raising enough or B, find another game. It's the same in any game, even holdem. If all you're raising with are the top 4 hands, nobody will pay you off, if you never bluff, nobody will pay you off. The key is to mix up your game and to get your money in when you have the best of it.
PS. I know you're a good player Buzz and your strategy seems to work for you, I'm just offering up a different point of view. Since there seems to be so much concensus to never raise pre flop in O8.

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Can a newbie chime in on this one?

In this situation, I think calling PF is better than raising but not necessarily for the same reasons as Buzz - I actually don't mind if the table bully puts me on A2 with this paticular hand since catching a deuce on the turn or river will appear to have spoiled my low and he may bet into me with a low worse than A4 and a high worse than trip deuces. But anyway...

I'm definitely an advocate of preflop raising - but only when the situation warrants it and I don't think that this situation does. You risk a lot but gain nothing by 3-betting PF here. You don't really need to raise because the LAG has done the raising for you. By calling the raise, you invite the UTG limper to put in that extra bet you were looking for by raising. If you 3-bet you'll probably drive him out - plus you will expose yourself to a cap bet from the LAG. Hero's hand is pretty flop specific and needs a couple of lo cards before it yields its full potential. I would hate to invest 3-4 bets preflop only to get heads up with an LAG on a flop like: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The point is, when the flop is dealt the pot size will be the same whether or not you call or reraise but your personal investment in it will be smaller when you just call.

I know there are a lot of Omaha 8 players that don't like to raise preflop because that's when their edge is the smallest. I am not one of those people but I think that in this particular situation raising has a higher risk than it's worth.

BTW Nick - For what its worth, this newbie thinks you played that hand perfectly on all streets. - love the river bluff. What were the results?

-Hash