[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Nick you have to reraise that hand in the SB pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yads - What is the advantage to raising before the flop with that hand? Isn't it that Nick probably gets another small bet from everyone who has already called.

Can you think of a disadvantage to raising before the flop with that hand? I can. Nick tips off other good players in the game about his holding. Although he does get that one extra small bet from limpers on the first betting round, he's less likely to have his opponents paying off on the next three betting rounds (and note that the limits double on the last two betting rounds). When the flop is good for Nick, opponents who might have chased all the way to the river with second or third nut low hands (and maybe also non-nut flush draw hands) are more reluctant to contribute.

Depends on Nick's opponents, I suppose. The Jedi warriers will put him on A2WX for his raise.

A second, (less important, IMHO) disadvantage is by raising before the flop, Nick looses more when he looses. Note that the extra club significantly decreases the chance of ending up making a club flush. (~28%, as I recall). Although the hand does have a decent chance to scoop, and despite the nut club flush draw and various other ways to end up as a winner for high, the hand is primarily a low hand. I'm confident that if you ran simulations, you'd have more winners for low than high. Thus I think of this hand primarily as a low hand with a possible chance to scoop. And there are many ways for a low hands to turn sour.

[ QUOTE ]
It's a great hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed it is a fine starting hand. And Nick can raise before the flop from the big blind with it
(if he chooses to look to the dark side of the force) <font color="white">_</font>[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
- but by raising before the flop, he isn't necessarily going to make more money at the showdown, even on those occasions where he ends up with a winning hand.

Honestly, I actually appreciate having opponents in the game who tip me off as to the cards they hold by raising before the flop from the small blind. And then when they don't raise on other deals, I suspect they don't have the type of hand they'd raise with.

Looking at it one way, a pre-flop raise from the small blind (or lack of it from certain opponents) is a kind of "tell." It's usually an excellent tell, as tells go, although admittedly not 100% accurate for all opponents.

To make the tell less readable, it seems to me that you have to start throwing in pre-flop raises with other hands from the small blind, hands that perhaps don't really merit pre-flop raises. And you have to judge how often to make these non-merited pre-flop raises.

• If it's fun for you to raise before the flop, fine.
• If you can intimidate opponents, with pre-flop raises, and if you have a situation where you want to intimidate opponents or even one particular targeted opponent, fine.
• Otherwise you're giving away a lot of information for what doesn't really amount to much in the way of profitability.

But note that when you raise before the flop from the small blind, the only person who might be immediately intimidated is the big blind. Everyone else will have voluntarily entered the action because they (presumably) think they have favorable odds to play (although they might not phrase it that way). And if they thought they had favorable odds before your raise, they certainly will think they have favorable odds, with even more money in the pot, to call your raise.

I'll agree A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], even with the extra club, is probably the best starting hand at the table on the current deal.

And I'll agree you do get more money in the pot on the first betting round when you raise before the flop.

Thus by raising before the flop you're clearly getting your money in the pot when you have the best of it. I think that would generally be a good thing to do in a game of Texas hole 'em.

Trying to get as much money in the pot as possible before the flop when holding AA, KK, or even QQ in a tight game of Texas hold 'em, hands that have an excellent chance of standing up, seems logical. The principle of getting your money in the pot when you have the best of it with an excellent Texas hold 'em starting hand makes good sense.

But Omaha-8 is a game where you look ahead to the river and try to visualize whether you'll have the winning hand or not.

For example, flopped straights in loose Omaha-8 games are notorious for not standing up.... as are low starting hands.

Even so, I'll admit getting your money on
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] before the flop is a good bet (favorable odds). No denying it.

But by raising before the flop it seems to me you're turning the game into a crap shoot, a one shot proposition. Even though you have the odds on your side for this proposition, I think you can do better by not tipping your hand too early.

At least that's how it seems to me.

Depends on your opponents, I suppose.

Buzz