O/8 High hand play
 

Disclaimer: I've played omaha/8 a few times for .50/1.00 online and some stupid SnGs. I had never played it live before saturday. I've read Ray Zee's hi/lo split book but rarely play the games so I'm probably missing and misinterpreting a number of concepts.

Ok, low-mid-limit HOE rotation game. I don't know much about omaha, actually I know very little, but i'm not alone at this table. about 30% of hands are raised PF after a limp, there are a few steals from LP if no one entered. Many of the raised hands are AA-rag-rag (like 86 was one showndown) or A2s with no support (like A27T was one shown). Recently the game has gotten very good with usually 6 to a flop for 1 bet.

The hand:
I'm UTG +2 and dealt Ah Kh Ac Tc. UTG limps, I limp also. I don't think I can limit the field much with a raise and want to make sure the flop isn't 3 low cards before continuing. Is this too loose to play up front since I'm high only? 3 other come along and the blinds and we take the flop 7 handed for 1 SB each.

Flop: Th 9s 4h

Well it doesn't get a lot better than that. I have the nut flush draw, an overpair, and there is only 1 low card on board. Its checked to me and I bet. we lose the SB but all else call.

Turn: (Th 9s 4h) 5c
Crap, low and not a heart, checked to me and I check(?), its checked to the CO who bets, folded to me, I call, and 2 MPs call. 4 to the river.

River: (Th 9s 4h 5c) 2d
Nice brick. Checked to cutoff who bets, I look left and see both MPs with wrists cocked to fold and look at a large pot and make a wasted crying call hoping he has only a crappy low. FYI, CO was really bad often showing down lows with A7 or 72 and then cursing his luck when someone had a slightly better low.

Anyway, thought? I really have no clue in this game but felt like I took a reasonable line in this hand. But since I know little about the game, please correct me.

Zack

Re: O/8 High hand play
 

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Flop: Th 9s 4h

Well it doesn't get a lot better than that. I have the nut flush draw, an overpair, and there is only 1 low card on board. Its checked to me and I bet. we lose the SB but all else call.

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Zack - Yes it does (get a lot better than that).

You have a nine-out nut flush draw but six of your flush outs put a low card on the board.

Your overpair is not worth much in a loose game. Count it as a runner-runner backdoor draw worth less than one out. You also have some runner-runner chances at a straight, which added to the value of your aces here may make the sum total of your runner-runner chances worth almost one out.

Count your six flush outs that make a low as worth between two and three outs.

34 cards don't help you much. (I'm not counting the aces or the flush draw cards here). The cards that do help you are worth somewhere betten 5 and 6 (say 5.5 if you like) genuine outs that would scoop the pot. I figure the "scoop equivalent" odds against making your hand are somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 to 1. Something like that.

If you figure there will be six times as much in the pot at the showdown as it will cost you to call here (on the second betting round), you have odds to call. I think there easily will be six times as much in the pot at the showdown as it will cost you, and thus I think you easily have odds to call here. (When you don't make a flush on the turn, as you won't most of the time, figure you lost the wager from the second betting round - just like losing a bet on the lottery - and go from there).

If you figure you'll get six callers here, you have odds to initiate a bet or raise. If you figure betting will substantially increase your chances to win the pot, you have a different reason to initiate a bet or raise. (If you could cut it down to one opponent who was mainly drawing for low, that would seem worthwhile to try).

That's about how I would figure it under game conditions. We could refine the hand odds estimate here, since we have all the time we need to calculate the various probabilities, but I'm confident it would amount to about the same thing.

You should much rather have a pair of tens for this flop than your actual hand - and anyone who has any set (and your opponents will play all kinds of crap pairs before the flop) has it better than you here.

Low will get there (but not for you) somewhere in the neighborhood of almost one third of the time, but you should be more worried about your chances of winning for high than of splitting the pot if low gets there.

"doesn't get a lot better than that"?

It sure does.

Your post has the ring of thinking you had something on the flop that somehow slipped away on the turn and river.

It didn't slip away. It was never there in the first place.

Even so, I don't think your bet on the second betting round was poor. It was fine. Welcome to the game of Omaha-8.

Buzz

Couple of questions and results at the bottom
 

Woah. I gots a lot to learn about this game.

Thanks for your response. I thought this was quite a flop for my hand but in reading your response my opinion is weakening.

A couple of questions...
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If you figure betting will substantially increase your chances to win the pot, you have a different reason to initiate a bet or raise. (If you could cut it down to one opponent who was mainly drawing for low, that would seem worthwhile to try).

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I don't completely understand this so correct me where I'm wrong. I believe I have enough hand to make it to the river here unless a raising war really breaks out, which seems quite unlikely for this flop since there is no strong low draw yet. Maybe a wrap with a flush draw vs a set could start a war, but both high-low games were pretty passive. I don't think I mentioned that before but should've. I think it was more due to people not truly understanding the value of their hand (like me in this post) and erring on the side of caution. Ok, if I do have enough hand to make it to the river, obviously there is nothing I could do to stop 2 low cards from coming up. So wouldn't I want the people with the low draws to call, so if I win the high side, its 1/2 a bet bigger per person? I could understand if this flop was taken 3 or 4 handed and I thought I could knock out all low draws or all but one and hope they paired up and didn't make a low and could take the whole pot with the high. But against 6 opponents on the flop, almost all of whom will go to far with their hands is this possible? Assuming its not, is this a good reason to get out of this pot? Or at least put as little money in as possible until I see if I get there and if I can scoop?

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You have a nine-out nut flush draw but six of your flush outs put a low card on the board.
...
Count your six flush outs that make a low as worth between two and three outs.

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Does the fact it puts a 2nd low card on board really hurt me that much? I think I'm thinking about this incorrectly as I know scooping is ideal, but a low card on board should induce an extra caller or two to help my half of the pot if I make it. So can't I consider this more like 3.5-4 outs for the 6 cards?

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Your post has the ring of thinking you had something on the flop that somehow slipped away on the turn and river.

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This is absolutely true and how I felt. It was my 2nd to last hand of the night (decided well before I got dealt this hand) and it looked like I might go out with a nice pot or half-pot, but I felt it slipped away. I think this does accurately display my "newbie-ness" to this game.

Results: I made the crying call with my sad overpair. He showed down T9 for top 2 and A7 for 7-low and scooped. His cards were 4 different suits.

Re: Couple of questions and results at the bottom
 

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Does the fact it puts a 2nd low card on board really hurt me that much?

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Yes. If the turn was a high card that didn't pair the board, you would be drawing for the whole pot. Winning the whole pot is usually at least three time more profitable than getting half.

The first thing you should learn is that the object of the game is to scoop pots.

Re: Couple of questions and results at the bottom
 

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If you figure betting will substantially increase your chances to win the pot, you have a different reason to initiate a bet or raise. (If you could cut it down to one opponent who was mainly drawing for low, that would seem worthwhile to try).
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I don't completely understand this so correct me where I'm wrong.

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Zack - My post would have been a better written piece if I had deleted both of those sentences. My apologies for confusing you.

I was thinking about how good the flop was for you and if you should be playing or not. I was typing my thoughts as they occurred to me.

I had just written “If you figure you'll get six callers here, you have odds to initiate a bet or raise.” Most of what had preceded that sentence were my thoughts related to adding up your outs and using them to estimate the odds against making your hand.

My next thought was that there are other reasons to raise besides having proper odds to raise. (Even when you are on a draw, you might raise simply to enhance your chances to win all or a greater share of the pot).

And thinking of how you could enhance your chances for winning, it occurred to me that AAXX is very strong for high when you only have one opponent.

(AhKhAcTc is a sort of enigmatic hand after this flop. On the one hand, the heart draw wants as many opponents as possible. On the other, when you don’t end up with the nut heart flush, your winning hopes are mostly dependent on the pair of aces, and a pair of aces, if unimproved, does better with as few opponents as possible.)

I could babble on here, trying to explain what I was thinking. Better to simply delete those two sentences that confused you.

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I believe I have enough hand to make it to the river...

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You certainly can make it to the river if that’s what you want.

You have the nut heart draw. Against a very small field the pair of aces also has significant value.

No straight or better is yet possible, but most of the single cards in the deck will enable a straight or better on the turn, and every possible two-card combination will enable a straight or better by the river.

A rule I have for myself is to not draw for a flush if the board pairs. But, yes, barring the board pairing on the turn, and barring a war erupting between two opponents who both make the nut straight on the turn, your nut flush draw is probably enough, considering the amount already in the pot, to carry you through to the river.

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Ok, if I do have enough hand to make it to the river, obviously there is nothing I could do to stop 2 low cards from coming up. So wouldn't I want the people with the low draws to call, so if I win the high side, its 1/2 a bet bigger per person?

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Well..... Sometimes when there are only three low cards on the board nobody who is still in the hand at the river can make low, even though they might have two or three low cards in their hand. The reason is everyone’s low cards may get counterfeited. Obviously the more opponents you have, the greater chance of someone having an “emergency” low. Also, the more opponents you have, the less chance of your aces standing up for high - in case you don’t make your flush. But yes, when you do win you want as many opponents as possible in the hand.

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I could understand if this flop was taken 3 or 4 handed and I thought I could knock out all low draws or all but one and hope they paired up and didn't make a low and could take the whole pot with the high. But against 6 opponents on the flop, almost all of whom will go to far with their hands is this possible?

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It is not likely. (Possible, yes. Probable, no).

I don’t (and never did) think you should try to knock out the low draws.

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Assuming its not, is this a good reason to get out of this pot? Or at least put as little money in as possible until I see if I get there and if I can scoop?

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I’m not sure how to respond. I don’t (and never did) think you should get out of this pot.

I just reacted to your statement, “Well it doesn't get a lot better than that.” and tried to explain my reasoning.

Two hearts on the flop, including a low card, seems playable in the game you’re describing. However, (1) Three hearts on the flop, (2) an ace on the flop, or (3) a queen and a jack with two hearts on the flop - all of these would be a lot better (not to mention dream flops like making a straight flush, quads, or a full house).

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Count your six flush outs that make a low as worth between two and three outs.
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Does the fact it puts a 2nd low card on board really hurt me that much?

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A low heart doesn’t “hurt” you, since you make your nut flush with a low heart. However, a low heart is not worth as much to you as a high heart.

And yes, it’s worth at least that much less than a high heart. A high heart is an out for the whole pot while a low heart is an out for only half the pot. And outs that are half pot odds are worth less than half of whole pot outs.

To see this clearly, make a pile of fifteen white chips and five blue chips (twenty chips in all). Pretend the five blue chips represent your own investment. When you win the whole pot, how much do you win? (Don’t count your own five blue chips that you get back as “won” chips).

The answer is you win fifteen chips when you scoop.

Now divide the pile of twenty chips in two, putting all of the blue chips in one of the half piles. When you win half the pot, how much do you win? (Don’t count your own five blue chips that you get back as “won” chips).

The answer is you win five chips.

That should make the difference between scoop outs and half pot outs very clear to you.

Again, sorry if my previous post confused you. Usually I edit my posts, but when I wrote that one I was supposed to be somewhere else and didn’t take the time to edit it.

Buzz

Re: Couple of questions and results at the bottom
 

Great stuff. Thanks.

The game itself confuses me much more than your post did. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thanks for taking the time to explain it all out to me.

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I don’t (and never did) think you should try to knock out the low draws.

I don’t (and never did) think you should get out of this pot.

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I didn't think you had implied either of these above points. the first was kind of me thinking of what hands I think might fold. The reason I asked about getting out of the pot was after reading your comments, I was really starting to understand how much less value my hand had than I thought it had. It made me wonder if I really had enough hand to seriously contest this pot. I'm glad I did. Thanks again for the help.

Zack