No Limit Live Game Hand
 

I play in a regular No Limit game. There are a few tough players, but it is generally known that I am beating the game for more than anyone else. Here is a hand that came up:

The blinds are $.50-1.00 and we all buy-in for 100 at first. Usually I end up putting a lot more on the table if I get shortstacked early. Anyway, I am the button and find KK. It is only the third hand of the night, and all have average stacks (100 or so). There are several limpers, and I raise it to 6. The Big Blind, a player I can read very well, reraises me to 20. All fold to me. Here is my thinking: I am going to go broke if he has Aces, because he would do this with one of four hands: AA, KK, QQ, or JJ. He would not do this with AK. I cannot emphasize this enough! In fact, a few hands later I got the cowboys again, open-raised, and he just called with AK, flopped an ace, and I got out- we both showed our hands.

Now, it would make sense to go all-in with KK here if I believe that he would make this raise with JJ or QQ as well as AA, but, I just called the 14. My reasoning was this: I can't put him on a single Ace, so if one flops, I will move on him. If he has AA I am going to go broke anyway unless I outflop him, but the appearance of an ace on the flop gives me an advantage the rare times that he has KK as well.

I call his pre-flop raise and an ace flops. He bets 20 into the 40+ pot. I raise him all-in, about another 50. He of course calls because he has AAA.

After this hand, I am criticized by another player for putting money in when an ace flops. I explain that with KK against AA pre-flop and short stacks, KK is going broke in a button against blind situation when the button makes the first raise almost every time.
I KNOW he would not make it 20 with AK from out of position against me. He would do so with 4 hands, 2 of which I beat, one of which I tie. Therefore, the ace on the flop, if anything, encourages me, as it lessens the possibility of him having 2 in his hand. If I know that he won't do this with AK, but will with big pairs other than aces, I am getting all-in when an ace flops or when one doesn't with KK here. Waiting for the flop to push in was my way of disguising my hand. Afterall, if he has QQ or JJ and the flop comes 972, when I raise him he pays me off. By calling I don't let him get away the times I have him beat. By raising all-in I will only get called by QQ, KK, or AA, a break even proposition.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on this hand. Do you agree with my logic? Any other ways of looking at this?

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

it sounds like you have a really good read on the players so your judgement is probably best.

but, going all in pre flop isnt break even because you are much better off getting QQ all in pre so that he cant get away if scare cards come on the flop. now, if hell even call all in pre flop on rare occasions with JJ or AK suited your wayyyy better off moving him all in pre flop.

you also got really sure of the hands pre flop and didn't give yourself a chance to re-evaluate. any reason not to flat call on the flop, hell probably check the turn hoping to trap you, if he has AA, giving up if he has an underpair, now you check behind. on the river hell bet small w/AA trying to get called or check with an underpair and pay off now that you've showed "weakness" on the turn. he might even bet the river for you with an uderpair if he is the induceable type.

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

OK, let's assume all of your assumptions are correct.

This guy has either JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. If he's going to call w/ all of those, just push pre-flop since there's more of a chance he has JJ or QQ. If he folds JJ/QQ to your all-in, your strategy is OK. But your flop play doesn't make any sense to me.

His stack is 70, the pot is 40. He bets 20.

Would he bet here w/ any of those hands? I assume so, otherwise you would have folded. So, you push on the flop.

If he has AA, he'll obviously call, so it doesn't matter.

He has only 1 way to have KK. He has lots of ways to have JJ or QQ.

Why let him get away from JJ or QQ? Let him draw to his 2-outer and hope he follows up his flop bet on the turn.

Is he going to check-fold JJ/QQ if you call the flop then bet the turn? In that case, you can fold if he pushes on the turn.

I can't see any benefit to pushing on the flop unless he's going to call w/ JJ/QQ there but check-fold on the turn, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

One quick point. When someone critizes your play don't explain your reasoning. Instead be sure to tell them how smart they are and reinforce any mistakes they may be making.

Paul

Great responses
 

You have great responses regarding not getting everything in on the flop (preflop, yes) - and I can't help remember a hand a few weeks ago at Binions. This is a small 2/5 blind game with most players buying in 100 or 200..........a decent player to my right senses weekness from another player due to the size of his bet (about 1/2 the pot) on the flop, and being heads-up he reraises all in with his draw..................well, the other player called, also on a draw and the caller won with his high-card after both missed their draws...............If the "smart player" had just called, or made a resonable reraise, he probably could have bought the pot on the river. However, with no chips, you have no options.

Re: Great responses
 

I think you are all right about just calling the flop, though I usually prefer to be raising or folding with one pair, and I wasn't folding here. However my reputation in this game has garnered calls as bad as JJ or QQ on this board before, so raising doesn't neccessarily eliminate that possibility, but I it would have been better to just call the flop.

Thanks for the responses.

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

first of all, you must consider that if you know the player's tendencies this well, he probably knows yours pretty well as well. so it is certainly not a given that he will call you with QQ or JJ if you move all-in here. that changes the math considerably.

also, and you can argue this with me if you know this player well, many players will only sometimes reraise with jacks or queens but will always raise with aces, which means they are more likely to have aces than queens or jacks here. conversely, some will often smooth-call with aces but would rather get it heads-up holding jacks or queens.

let's assume he holds QQ or JJ and will call the all-in. counteracting the advantage of being able to bluff at an ace flop is that if a king flops, you won't get action out of him unless he flops a set too. so almost half as often as an ace flops, you lose the chance to take his whole stack. since bluffing at an ace flop will presumably take less than half his stack, this just about erases the advantage of waiting for the flop altogether.

if i knew he would call me with any of the pairs he'd raise with, i push in now. another ugly situation this avoids is what to do when a queen flops, which can be big trouble if he will bet the same way with AA, QQ or JJ on that flop.

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
first of all, you must consider that if you know the player's tendencies this well, he probably knows yours pretty well as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually why I played this hand this way. Normally on the button I would raise with a variety of hands, and everyone knows this. This means that his reraise does not have to be AA, though it is doubtful that he would reraise with as little as 88 in this position against me.

Anyway here is how I look at it: with the stacks small and someone raising me 14$ up to 20$, and I am holding KK with position, I will call to trap him. I could have a variety of hands here and he knows this. In fact, it is doubtful that he thought I had KK at any point in the hand. Anyway, I am not folding to a 14$ raise knowing what I know, and knowing what I know he knows. If I reraise to 50 and he comes back at me I am probably calling anyway, though it will be a crying call. Again, the stacks are too short- this game is like a Party NL. If I go all-in pre-flop I lose, calling off my money with the worst hand. I don't like this. If the flop comes 972, he bets his aces, and I make the same move- now HE has to sweat, not me. I could have a set. He will probably call anyway and win, but my actions on this hand, even when the ace- especially when the ace- hits the flop, set up future action. If I simply get it all-in preflop I make a conventional straightforward play and lose. That's fine. Another player at the table had KK vs AA and lost his stack in this perfectly acceptable manner. The way I lost my stack, however, confuses my opponents. That is good. They know I am not afraid to bet when an ace comes and I hold KK. They know I will play KK with position this way. They already knew AA was better than KK, and so did I. I could have pushed in pre-flop and lost- but that makes it easy on my opponent when he has AA. I don't want it to be easy.

Of course, with the ace on the flop it made it easy for him anyway, but in my mind an ace on the flop made the likelihood of AA smaller. Of course he could have it, and he did, but I got my money in agressively, confused my opponents, and looked "wild" in the proccess. This is precisely why this game is so good to me. I lost, but as I said, anyone is losing KK vs AA in this spot. As I said, I was CERTAIN he did not have AK, and I have had many hands that back this up. So the only thing he could have that beat me was AA, in which case, I was going to lose anyway. Had I called the flop and tried to save money, well, I might have. But I really don't like playing this way, even if theoretically in this spot it would have been best. Again, the ace shouldn't have mattered to me unless I was going to fold to his reraise preflop.

In this game I like to go with more of a Brunson type philosophy. I had made my decision that if he has AA, so be it, I will lose. The fact that I lost this hand this way rather than getting it all-in pre-flop, will reap rewards I would have missed out on had I just pushed in. Now they have another tendency to consider. I want my opponents confused and intimidated. It allows me to steal big pots when I smell weakness and allows me to get calls I should never get. There were a few players in the game that were new: and this was the best thing I could have showed them. They would NEVER make such a play, and they will of course think me a gambler or a fool because of this. Incidentally this game had a variety of crazy hands- maybe I can post some others that were fun.

Thanks again for the responses!

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand
 

I agree that there are some potential image benefits from this line, but I think that you're overvaluing the value of this image play wrt future hands. Sure, there was an Ace on the board. But you still have KK, as you state, a very likely best hand. It's very different if you pull this same move w/ 72o and show it.

I still think that the primary thing this line does is let your opponent off the hook when he has JJ or QQ.

Re: No Limit Live Game Hand- The Sequel (Extraordinarily Long)
 

Same game. I have Q2s in the BB. There is a raise to 5. A few callers, I call. Raiser was UTG. He is not very good- at all. Flop is Q23. I check. He bets 15. One call, I re-raise to 60. He thinks and thinks and then calls. Turn is a King. I don't like it, but I can't slow down too much. I bet
70. He calls. When this happens I think he's got AA. River is a 7. I bet 70 again, even though I thought about checking. He finally calls and has KQ. I wonder how he could not raise me if he could call me on the flop. Anyway that's what I get for playing Q2.

I decide I wish to test the limits of aggression.
I pick up A4os in the button some time later. I raise to 11 after a few limpers. One caller. He is a pretty good player, but also pays off a lot. Flop is JcTc7s. I have nothing. He bets 12. I raise him 25. He calls. The turn is a Qd. He checks. I bet 80. He calls. River is an Ac. He checks I check. He has K9c. LOL. I am an idiot, but I think had he not had a str8+flush draw it might have worked.

Very next hand I reload to some obscene amount for this game. I am in for 700 and down a ton. This game is loose and terrible (and yet I am playing looser and terribler?). I am the button with AQos.

Remember all those threads about how bad AQ is? Someone opens for 7. Tons of calls. I reraise to 25. I figure I can get away if beat. A few calls and the pot is roughly 100. Flop is A56r. EP bets 25. She is new to the game- I have no idea how she plays. I assume she plays like most everyone else in the game- badly. It's folded to me and I say "I have to raise it- 75 more". She agonizes. She agonizes. She calls. I am sad. She turns up AJ. I am happy. My hand actually holds up. I am now only down about 320 for the night. It was a bad night.

Later I open raise with A8h in EP. A few calls. Flop is Jc 9c 5d. I check. Mr. AA vs my KK bets a little under the pot. I call. The turn is a 7d. I check he bets. I call. The river is a 7s. I bet huge. He agonizes. He agonizes. He folds. He turns up JdTd. I make up some fairytale hand to reassure him that his play is correct.

I end up down 150 for the night, after being stuck the worst I've ever been in this game- about 460. I am OK with it, as I have learned some things and certainly contributed to future calls with outrageously loose agressive play.

The next night:
I have learned much from my previous night of playing outrageous poker. I hope to use teh agression to my advantage, unfortunately, I never have to steal a pot- not this day. Mr. "Why would you do that with an ace on the board?" and I get in a nice little hand. I have presto and naturally raise in late position. Tons of calls. Flop is AQ5r. I am getting paid, the only question is how much. Checked to me I bet. Mr. "why? etc." calls. I like this. Turn is a 10. Checked to me- massive bet, slight overbet- Mr. "Why? etc" re-raises me all-in 120 more. My bet was something like 50. I say "Man, you got a straight? Two Pair? I call." He says "You have a set?" I say "yes."
He is sad. River no help for him. I win big pot. He has AQ.

Later I have JJ and open in MP for a small raise. Flop 8s 8c 2s. So many limpers, but I know the 8 will let me draw to the back breaker cheap. Someone in EP bets some hideous 5$ bet. I call. Guy in LP makes it 15. Big mistake. One caller, and I call as well. Turn is the Js. We check to LP. He bets 75. Sandwich caller calls the 75. Now I figure, maybe if I raise, they both have 8s and put me on a flush. I raise 80 more. LP goes all-in for 30 more. Sandwich caller folds (DAMN!). I win and LP is now sad as he has 22 for the flopped full. I shouldn't have raised, but again, I like to raise just in case that last 8 or some ourageous card that beats me comes. There isn't enough money left in the other guys stack to fret over anyway.

I go on to win almost 700, the biggest win yet in this game. I win probably 7 pots all night.

Now, if I got criticized for that KK hand, I can't imagine what will be said about the A4os [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you have read this far, you are a real trooper.