have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

i have Qh8h and openraise from the cutoff looking to steal the blinds. button 3 bets. blinds fold.

the flop is 975 w/ two hearts. i bet, button raises, i call.

the turn is 9s. i check, button bets, i checkraise, he calls.

river Qc. i bet, he calls and flashes JJ before he mucks.

i was trying to represent a 9 on the flop and turn sequence and i think i did a good job. i dont semibluff hardly as much as i used to, and hands like this remind me why. they never fold. they always put you on exactly a semibluff when the board is coordinated like this (which it usually needs to be to make a standard semibluff raise w/ a draw). in short, i think this is an example where hpfap has become a good book to read to see how many intermediate players play, but no longer the everloving tome of advanced play.. what is truly advanced play has changed.

what's the advanced way to play this hand? fold preflop (even when the blinds are quite stealable)? checkraise flop (another semibluff really) bet turn and reraise turn? give up on river if you miss?

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

I expect a trip report from the cutting edge of poker strategy. Please post one on the B & M forum.

when you opponents perceive you as a tight, conservative player, these plays can work if used against the right opponents.

when you are perceived otherwise, they almost cannot work, no matter the opponent. Or to paraphrase Ray Zee, "once you are no longer tight, all is lost."

Dan Z.

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

If there's zero chance of him folding then the "advanced" way to play is to check call, check call, bet if you hit on the river (a Q or a heart). Obviously. Around here at least though people will fold AK no pair heads up on/before the river if I put heat on them so semibluffing still has value.

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

"have (turn checkraise) semibluffs become obsolete?"

Yes.

No one ever ever folds to them unless they are stone cold bluffing and have zero "outs".

I've found the only way that turn semibluff raises work anymore is when you do them with position. They work an amazingly high % of the time in that situation.

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

I absolutely agree about that HFAP has become the intermediateplaybook. Especially when it comes to semibluffs and the " bet out the turn when everybody checks the flop" play. Everybody are so aware of those plays that you have to be careful about them.

I think the important thing about semibluffs is to do it at the right time.
To be honest i dont think this was the right time to do it. HU with no position. Its a big chance he got a good hand here since he bet the turn. With a hand like AK he would be more likely to take freecard just to avoid being checkraised. In his spot there is no way i would fold my JJ for your checkraise on the turn. Its just to big chance its a move or a semibluff.

Sehr Gut

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

btw, I just read the details of your hand. You really expect someone to fold an overpair in a short-handed situation?

Also, if you really had a 9, why would you not bet the turn again? THis doesn't seem to fit, becasue you can't expect him to bet overcards, and you could go for 3 bets against an overpair. It just doesn't add up, or at least, I'm not buying.

Dan Z.

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

Betting out and reraise if he raises is the only way to really represent a nine here IMO.
Therefor i think a bet is much more scary for him. He might not want to raise you in case you would reraise him but he is not gonna lay his hand down.
Im with clark that semibluffraises on the turn with position are working fine.

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw, I just read the details of your hand. You really expect someone to fold an overpair in a short-handed situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he doesn't. He wants him to fold AK, AQ or other overcard hands. You're right about him not being able to bet overcards also. Actually, this hand is a bit scarier if it goes check-check on the turn. Does our hero bet the river? pay off a raise? Position is a good thing

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

"what's the advanced way to play this hand? fold preflop?"

Yes, but not until after you get reraised from behind.

"checkraise flop"

Gack.

Here's a novel idea. How about when you are headsup first to act facing a pre-flop reraiser who has basically said to you, look, I've got something I like, and I ain't leaving, then you say, okay okay, alright already, I'll put in as little as I can until I have at least a pair.

Advanced? Hardly. Unbeatable? Definitely.


Tommy

Re: have semibluffs become obsolete?
 

I wonder what advice you would get if you posted this hand from the buttons perspective.
Would people recommend that you fold the turn?
Wait a few months and try it.