Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

An interesting hand just occured. Comments?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

($19.35)
MP2 ($88.75)
CO ($40.55)
Button ($38)
SB ($123.95)
BB ($57)
UTG ($20.80)
UTG+1 ($197.30)

Preflop:Hero is UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, calls $1, MP2 calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $7.5</font>, Button calls $7.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $6.50, UTG calls $6.50, UTG+1 calls $6.50, folds, MP2 calls $6.50.

Flop: ($46.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $33.05 (All-In)</font>, Button folds, BB calls $33.05, UTG calls $13.30 (All-In), Hero...

Well, what do you guys think?

-Hero bets/fold?
-Hero bets/calls any raise?
-Hero bets/calls raises by shortstacks but not by Mp2?
-Hero bets pot, potcommits himself against Mp2 and the rest of the table, switches to 10/20 and watch some better players play the game?
-Hero check/folds?
-Hero check/raises?

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

Fold preflop
Check-fold postflop

Playing middle pairs out of position / in raised pots is death for your BR.

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop
Check-fold postflop

Playing middle pairs out of position / in raised pots is death for your BR.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the whole middle pair OOP thing, but wouldn't you play this hand from just about any position for the straight/freeroll potential? As long as you have the discipline to get away from bottom set, it would seem like there is a lot of potenial for this hand.

I agree the original poster's situation is not good with bottom set and the idiot end of the straight draw. He is likely to be drawing very thin against 3 all-in opponents.

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

I totally disagree with Joe. Stuff it in. You very likely have BB beat, so your equity in the sidepot will finance a decent portion of your investment in the main pot. If CO has KK, so be it, but you are most likely ahead here with a set against these short stacks who basically committed preflop. And you have a draw to the nuts and all kinds of possibilities for making the best non-nut hand.

I crack people all the time with bottom set, for much bigger pots than this. I think bottom set is highly underrated.

I would have folded to the raise preflop though, cause you realy don't have the implied odds you need to call that raise with a hand like this. You are not going to flop a worthwhile hand very often, so you need to have the potential to stack someone big time when you hit to make it worthwhile.

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I totally disagree with Joe. Stuff it in. You very likely have BB beat, so your equity in the sidepot will finance a decent portion of your investment in the main pot. If CO has KK, so be it, but you are most likely ahead here with a set against these short stacks who basically committed preflop. And you have a draw to the nuts and all kinds of possibilities for making the best non-nut hand.

I crack people all the time with bottom set, for much bigger pots than this. I think bottom set is highly underrated.

I would have folded to the raise preflop though, cause you realy don't have the implied odds you need to call that raise with a hand like this. You are not going to flop a worthwhile hand very often, so you need to have the potential to stack someone big time when you hit to make it worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Knowing you are a favorite over the BB is huge here because he is committed to calling and building a sidepot with you. Thinking just about the main pot, there is 125 in there now, 33 to call, so you need 21% equity to profit from a call from the main pot, if MP2 folds.

With 5 outs to the nuts (albeit hitting the 4 is potentially subject to a ton of redraws) you almost certainly have 21% equity given that you are the only one with a set a reasonable percentage of the time. And because you have &gt; 50% equity against BB's range of hands in a sidepot, you actually need less than 21% if you push, which you should, because:

If BB has top two or QJT or something, you want to get his $24 in now. Against anything but QJT7, 99, or KK, you are a strong favorite and he very rarely just calls with a set on this board. You also want to get MP2 to fold 99 or a weak straight draw.

So push and pray.

Oh. I don't hate the preflop call, but a fold is probably marginally better, given that this scenario is about the best you can hope for and any hand you make, even a flopped straight, is subject to redraws. The main problem is that the other stacks are so small

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

Well, the call from BB was the key for me, since it most likely puts me ahead in the sidepot. So I did what Tilt and LearnedFromTV suggested. I pushed. Thanks for the comments everyone.

<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $189.7</font>, MP2 folds, BB calls $16.45 (All-In).

Turn: ($191.85) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: ($191.85) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $191.85

BB has 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (straight, jack high).
UTG has T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (straight, king high).
UTG+1 has 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (four of a kind, eights).
CO has Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and eights)
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $191.85.

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

Yes pal.

How dare you do this play?

Re: Bottom set and weak openended against shortstacks
 

I'm not familar with games at this level but normally, the more raising I receive, big stacks permitting, the better with this hand. Lots of limpers is potentially much much worse.

gl

dd