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-   -   Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=378482)

UprightCreature 11-14-2005 08:22 PM

Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
I haven't played with the villian too much, but he plays a few too many hands and decently aggresive for a live game. I'm running bad and I think I have a weak-tight image at the table. On to the hand:

I'm in the hijack with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Folded to me and I bump it. Folds to the villian in the SB who calls. BB folds and its heads-up.

Flop T 7 3 rainbow and the T is a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I get checkraised and I...? Whats my action and whats my plan for the turn?

Fianchetto 11-14-2005 08:37 PM

Re: Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
I like calling then raising most turn cards and checking behind on the river. You charge him double if he was checkraising with draw, and you may occasionally get him to fold a better hand like a ten with a weak kicker or 88. It costs the same as calling down, and if you get 3-bet I think you have a pretty easy fold.

Now if the turn is a spade I'd consider just calling, you need to see the river and can no longer safely fold to a 3-bet.

11-15-2005 05:47 PM

Re: Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
The easiest/safest path is to call the CR and handle the turn according to what it is (with the likelihood of raising said turn). But, who wants easiest and safest?

You beat any 7 other than the T7 and the 72. I can't see the preflop call with 72, and I think that many people would wait for the turn to CR T7 here.

You're a dog to any T, and T9, JT, QT, KT, and AT are all possible holdings, as are 55, 66, 88, 99 (the other pocket pairs being weighted towards either a reraise preflop or a CR on the turn). 89 doesn't help much, either, and against all those hands, you are a 65:35 dog.

Adding in 87, 97, J7, Q7, K7, and A7, and it moves to 51:49, still a dog. If there's a likelihood he would play AK-AJ this way (i.e. calling the PF raise, waiting to raise the flop just for value), you're in slightly better shape.

All of which says a fold doesn't suck, but another play would be to three bet his check raise to rescue your position and the free turn. As Fianchetto noted, a spade on the turn will dramatically change the hand for you.

DpR 11-15-2005 06:11 PM

Re: Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
I personally like to 3 bet the flop here. Bet turn no matter what and check the river if you dont improve. I do not think this is the easiest way to play it becasue you can end up in some hariy positions. i.e. he calls and then donks the turn or he caps the flop and leads the turn. Nevertheless, that is how I like to play it recently.

Eric P 11-15-2005 06:23 PM

Re: Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
I think calling is better than raising the flop, with the intention of raising a lot of turn cards, and folding to a few others. If an offsuit 8-J falls and he still bets, then i think a fold is the best option, any Q or better a raise could be a good play, prompting him to muck a few bad suited T's (T4, T5, other such weak BB defense hands) occasionally and pocketpairs below the T. If he does have any sort of respectable ten then he will most likely just call, and then you just pray for your seven or ace, or hope that the backdoor draw comes through.

3-betting the flop with weakness such as this too often will lead you you getting 4-bet and them leading the turn. That is sort of a disaster for this hand unless you catch a very good card, and then the pot is probably to big for them to fold. Just calling will also allow him to bet out the turn with a wide variety of weaker hands that he was c/r'ing with such as worse seven or 89, then the raise on the turn becomes a good play. Especially if you often play this line with very good hands, I think you can pick this pot up on the turn unimproved a big percentage.

11-15-2005 07:04 PM

Re: Live 40/80 flop middle pair with a backdoor flush
 
I prefer calling the flop and deciding what to do on the turn based on what comes and how he bets it; I expect him to lead almost any turn. I like raising a fair amount of turn cards including any spade. If you don't improve by the river then check it down. Three betting the flop is also ok but I think it makes the hand much more difficult.

UprightCreature 11-15-2005 09:15 PM

Rusults and thoughts
 
I actually 3 bet the flop and got called by the viallian. The turn was a baby [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] he checks, I bet, he calls. The river brought in my runner runner nut flush he checks, I bet, he calls MHIG and his cards have a violent encounter with the muck.

I posted because I was thinking that it would have been better to call the flop with the intention of raising the turn or betting if checked to most of the time, but I wasn't really sure.

By raising on the turn when its not a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I have a lot more fold equidy against hand I'm behind escpecially if its a Q,K or even J to a lesser extent, and its easy to get away from my hand when its clear that its no good.

When the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I think I still usually want to raise, but it seams closer. Its unfortunate when I get three bet here as I have to call and fold the river unimproved, but if I just call I'm in the position of facing another bet on the river when I don't improve.


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