KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

Party 2/4

I hadn't been at the table too long but reads so far:

UTG+1 seemed solid with big stack
SB was a loose passive fish
BB was a loose passive fish

Hero is MP2 with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Preflop: UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero???

Now I'm wondering what UTG+1 was 3-betting with on the flop and whether I have him beat or not?

Also should I be capping this flop?

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

I would cap the flop to hopefully knock 1-2 people out. Considering UTG+1 didn't cap pf, and yet still 3bet the flop, I'd put him on JJ or TT, and depending on the person, maybe even QQ, so I'd definitely cap. It's unlikely his hand hit that board, and I really doubt he'd 3bet overcards in this spot.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

I like the flop call, by just calling you're allowing one of the blinds to cap it with a 7, I think we gain information this way. I have a hard time putting UTG+1 on something other than 99-QQ, but the problem is the blinds may have a 7, or now have picked up an ace. I'm debating between a smooth call here or raising for the small chance of pushing out a weak ace and then taking a free showdown.

edit: Just noticed the reads on the sb and bb. I think I would just call the turn. I think it's unlikely for them to raise the ace, since they're passive, so we can probably showdown fairly cheaply from here unless we are up against trips.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

cap flop. you can probably raise that turn given the way the hand played out, but i might call for overcalls and because a fish with an ace will call 2 cold. im not sure were ahead 50 % of the time here.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

I think you have to cap the flop to see if they still lead into you on the turn. If they do, then you can re-evaluate. I think you get better information on their holdings if you cap and they still play back at you.

I think a 7 usually checkraises that flop against a couple PFR's. I think you're up against pocket pairs on the flop. Anyway, the way it played out, by capping you may have been able to take a free card or cheaper showdown with the scarecard A out there.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop call, by just calling you're allowing one of the blinds to cap it with a 7, I think we gain information this way. I have a hard time putting UTG+1 on something other than 99-QQ, but the problem is the blinds may have a 7, or now have picked up an ace. I'm debating between a smooth call here or raising for the small chance of pushing out a weak ace and then taking a free showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think capping the flop actually gives more information. If one of them calls 3 bets cold out of position, it lets us know SOMETHING is up, even if they are relatively fishy. Also, given they are passive, they'd be just as likely to wait for the turn to pop it, and given the previous action, they'd even be right to do so.

In short, this is an easy preflop cap.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

first off, cap the flop. Since you didn't, raise the turn. I don't understand why the ace scares you. Given the action so far a little bit of hand reading will elucidate the fact that UTG+1 is holding a pp that is > 7, but < KK.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

I think capping the flop is significantly better than calling here. We might knock out players with stuff like A3 or whatever (note even 2 out draws are getting to the point where calling 1 is correct).

If you cap the flop and someone other than UTG+1 comes along for the ride and you get check-raised on the turn, I think we can start talking fold.

If only you and UTG+1 remain in the proceedings, then you absolutely MUST take this hand to showdown. Hobbs is right that you'll see 99-QQ from them very, very often.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
first off, cap the flop. Since you didn't, raise the turn. I don't understand why the ace scares you. Given the action so far a little bit of hand reading will elucidate the fact that UTG+1 is holding a pp that is > 7, but < KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, your read on UTG1 may, just may, be correct. AK can make this flop play to knock you out and gain the button, taking a free card if necessary. I do believe, though, that OP is more concerned with loose blinds holding Ax. Raising this turn is spewing.

Re: KK - dreaded ace hits turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do believe, though, that OP is more concerned with loose blinds holding Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]
Loose passives don't randomly donk A4o (and other Ax crap hands) into large fields that often. Yes, A3 is a small concern, but I'd be much more concerned about one of these monkey's holding a 7.
[ QUOTE ]
Raising this turn is spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree with this and in fact think a turn raise is for value.